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Question #1: 

Hello Dr. Luginbill,

I am so sorry to hear about your health issues. I only get updates from your emails on Sunday so never get the full picture other than surgery and accident. I do pray you are recovering from both. There are lots of emails on the Tribulation lately and I do understand that interest. So if the Tribulation does not start this fall then we have to wait another 7 years or am I not reading that right? And if we have to wait another 7 years why can't it start next fall or the fall after that? On another topic Matthew 7: 21-23 says "Lord, Lord" and He than says" I never knew you" etc. What is Jesus saying here if the people thought they were doing His work? How would this then fit into some of the churches, mostly the Baptist, who believe in OSAS?

Also I had always believed that Matthew 24 where it says two were in the field and one taken that it was the believer that was taken and the unbeliever was left behind but I have heard recently about another theory saying it is the opposite that the believer is left behind to do the Lord's work. These theologians say it is like Noah and that he was left and the unbelievers taken out of the world.

So I come to the source :) for you to explain it to me.

Will continue to keep you in my prayers for strength and healing.

Blessings,

Response #1:

If the Tribulation does not start this fall, then there is a problem with the interpretation (stress, "interpretation") at Ichthys about the tribulational overlap leading to a probable (probable if the interpretation were correct) 2026 start.

However, that is all it means. It does not mean that we can with certainty say that the Tribulation will start then in seven years or in one year. What it means is that we are now "in the red zone", so to speak, and it might start at any time. The most likely scenario, I would say, is that there will be a full 2,000 year Church Age in that case preceding the Tribulation, but there are a lot of other "moving parts" (as you probably know from reading all the emails over the past few months).

So the bottom line is that I think it was good for folks to be alert for this fall. Now we need to be alert period . . . until it does begin, whenever that is. Here I think I have the Bible completely on my side, not just an interpretation of it (see the link).

(35) "Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, (36) like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. (37) It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. (38) It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night. (39) But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. (40) You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."
Luke 12:35-40 NIV

Re: Matthew 7:21-23, our Lord says to these individuals, "I never knew you." I take that at face value. These are therefore not lapsed believers, but rather those who put on a show yet never actually accepted Him as their Savior. There is a lot of that going around today too. I can think of a great many putatively Christian groups and "churches" where none or few of the individuals who posture their way through rituals and do "good works" are actually believers.

Re: Matthew 24:36-44. The point of comparison with Noah is the unexpectedness of the 2nd Advent with that of the flood. Unbelievers are not expecting it. When our Lord returns, believers will be "taken", i.e., resurrected and lifted up to join the Lord (as He had just said a little earlier in this same chapter, Matt.24:31; cf. 1Thes.4:16-17). One does NOT want to be "left behind" (n.b., the verb here has a negative connotation; those "left behind" at the flood were drowned as well). The big issue here has mostly been rapture-enthusiasts wanting to make this "taking up" happen BEFORE the Tribulation, but as is clear from this same chapter, it happens AFTERWARDS: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . ." (Matt.24:29).

Thanks for those prayers, my friend! I keep you and your granddaughter in mine daily as well.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #2:

Thanks, Dr. Luginbill, just needed to confirm I was understanding those scriptures correctly. __ is a Baptist pastor and professor at a Seminary so we have some conversations especially about the OSAS that they teach and the pre trib rapture theory. I think many of the congregants who go forward during the "altar call" belief that "that is it, I am saved" and I have said, but what about Jesus saying "take up your cross and follow me", that is the hard part of salvation and the commitment to know Him and have a relationship. I find their answer to that is "then they were not truly saved" but what about those who thought they were like in scripture where they say "Lord, Lord". On the pre trib he and I agree to disagree.

When I was still working as a nurse in the medical center of a long term care facility I us to give some of my patients a story called The Petite Cross. The man in the story is carrying a cross that he thought was really heavy and such a burden he couldn't carry it anymore. He saw a sign on the front of a building that said Cross Store so he went in. He saw Jesus there and Jesus said if it was too heavy to put it in the corner and find another one. So he set the cross in the corner and walked around the store to find another one. What he saw were huge crosses, some he could barely look up to see the top, saw mediums ones and as he walked around he saw over in the corner a small little cross. He asked Jesus "can I have that one"? Jesus said "yes, but that is the one you came in with." That story always touches me.

Thanks again and have a very blessed day. Also appreciate your prayers for us.

Blessings,

Response #2:

That is a nice story.

Yes, the Baptists are "hard nuts" to crack. They are as wrapped up in their traditional doctrines as the RC's are, and the ones that are the most wrong they cling to the most tightly.

In my experience of altar calls (limited though it is), the people going down front were mostly already saved. It becomes a kind of "work of supererogation" again along RC lines.

"Never really saved in the first place" is the old Calvinist dodge. It seems to elude people who say this that if that can be true of others why not of them? So maybe they are "not saved in the first place" either. But of course "saved" is being a believer in Jesus Christ, i.e., one who "believes", "is believing" in Him. All believers are saved; unbelievers are not saved. So maintaining faith is what counts. And as you note, the only way to be sure about that is to be pushing forward in spiritual growth, progress and production. Because sitting on one's hands leads to degradation of faith . . . and only believers are saved.

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
John 3:18 NKJV

Thanks for your prayer too, my friend!

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #3:

Hi Bob,

The bees God gave me are doing well and gaining strength. I have never had a more gentle hive. I've been truly blessed. I had given up on keeping bees and was about to burn the hive body because of the wax wing damage when these girls appeared. It was late in the season and they started off weak. They are working hard cleaning up the damage. which truly amazes me.

The Lord wants me to have bees. Why, I don't understand, but He's blessed me so far and answered my prayers down to specifics on many other requests I've made of Him. I doubt many others would be interested or even understand this, but to me it proves the Lord takes care of those who love him.

On another note: this country and the world seems to have lost their collective mind. The evil I read about in the prophets seems to be nearly the same as today. It now seems to be worldwide. I remember a German lady whom I liked telling me about growing up in Berlin and seeing body parts on the streets during and after the bombing. So it's all happened before, but I can't think of a time when it's been worldwide.

The Moorish invasion 1.0 was only southern Europe. Now, 2.0, it's world wide. Why should I believe that what He did to Israel and Judah will not happen again? Probably on a worldwide scale. On God's time scale, I'm sure the end is within the next few hours, whether this year, next or seven years from now.

Sorry, Bob, I'm emoting. For those with doubts, like those I read in this week's posting, my message is this: my personal experience proves God is good to his word. There's no reason to doubt or be afraid. Sure, it will hurt; evil isn't on our side, but like a root canal, it won't last long.

Sorry for the long windy email. I pray you and yours are well, U of L is treating you well and you're healing well.

In our Lord Jesus,

Response #3:

That's great news about the bees, my friend! So you will have honey, come what may! I pray that the two of us will also keep "doing well and gaining strength"! It is so like the Lord to give us the spiritual refreshment we need, especially when times are trying. We just need to always remember that He is with us and knows our hearts better than we do.

I see you've been reading the news again. Lol, it's like that old joke I posted this week: "Doc, it hurts when I do this", and the doctor replies, "Well stop doing that!" But I understand we do have to have some idea of what is going on, and it's all pretty much depressing. But we can take heart that the perfect regime is getting closer to arriving every day. And the perfect King will straighten everything out perfectly. Until then, we stick to our knitting to have something good to put before Him when He does come back – so as to be part of that solution now and then.

"And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’ "
Luke 19:15-17

The worse things get, the more we yearn for what is coming next (Rom.8:23).

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #4:

Hi Bob,

Yes, I confess, I've been reading headlines again, but I have to scan both rightwing and leftwing to get a sense of what's going on. I'm convinced that reading an entire article has become a waste of time. A major slant right now seems to be Trump and Netanyahu are either saviors or demons which gets mighty tiring. Objective writing seems to have disappeared. Old journalistic standards like who, what, where, when and why in the first paragraph or two has been replaced by train of thought rambling. I quit watching television and reading newspapers in the 90s and I'm trying to give up the scan-the-headlines addiction, too.

Thank you for your encouragement and prayers. You remain in mine as well.

In our Lord Jesus,

Response #4:

I agree with you about the quality of present day journalism. Of course, it's never been that great. The NYT was into holocaust denial right up until mid-1945, e.g. Also, I have noticed in all online presentations of "news" that the tease has totally replaced the lede. They tell you something you think you might like to know about but usually don't answer their own question. They get the click. They waste your time.

You're an encouragement to me, my friend. Keep on fighting the good fight of faith!

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #5:

Hi Bob,

Sorry it has been a while but there are a lot of things happening here and the last week, things really got on top of me and got me down but I have now rallied again in faith thankfully.

[omitted]

Already in my family and even with their Christian neighbour, I am seeing a pattern of people behaving in abusive ways whilst maintaining a facade of being good. I also am directly experiencing being seen as evil whilst I try my best to be obedient and follow the Lord.

Isaiah 5:29
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

What I am seeing and experiencing...it surely can't be another seven before the seven as there won't be any world left!

If we are to have a respite, it could only be a year or two at the very most surely. The speed that evil is now increasing at and they are already blaming all this on Israel, on Christians, on the elect angels, even on God Himself! I would eat my hat if we have another 14 years of this.

I saw in yesterday's posting that you still have neck problems after the crash and have a very busy work schedule until Christmas and then until spring break. I will pray for this along with other things you have need of.

Thanks in advance my friend!

Your friend in Jesus,

Response #5:

No worries. You have a lot going on.

Re: "in the absence from my family, I have had a lot more peace and been able to make great strides forward with ministry work. It cannot be a coincidence that the enemy is trying to drag me back into the fray again." I think this absolutely correct on all counts. So it would seem clear (at least to me), that keeping some distance and not being totally sucked back into all that drama again would be prudent for your spiritual and mental health.

Re: "I would eat my hat if we have another 14 years of this." LOL! We may have to eat our hats, jackets and shoes before it's all over. But we trust the Lord to get us through whatever we will need to get through. Take a deep breath and look around. You are still standing . . . and still standing strong in your faith! Keep your eyes on New Jerusalem. It won't be long and "all this" will indeed be over forever.

Thanks for your prayers, my friend! Keeping you in mine daily as well.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #6:

Hi Bob,

I hope you've had a good weekend. Thanks again for the emails.

Your correspondent in question 9 wrote to you about how her friend had "deconstructed her faith". You might want to mention where you had posted about this earlier (at the link).

I also listened to a pastor online just the other day who directly answered the very questions some of these ex-Christians were wanting answers to. From what I can see, they still haven't changed their minds. It seems to me that they're not really interested in the truth anyway.

Holding my breath for this coming week - it's going to be a tough one.

Wishing you a good week ahead too, Bob!

In Jesus

Response #6:

Thanks for the typo help. My favorite this time around was "God as the authority". Didn't you realize I was just doing my Cockney impression (lol)?

Thanks for reminding me about "deconstruction". I put a link now for that and this latest one on the subject page. I think perhaps this has something to do with "deconstructionism" in literary criticism. At least they share the same overall subjectivity in approach.

I could sure use a break, but this week is more of the same. So I feel your pain, my friend! God helping us, we'll get through and there will be some respite down the road. At least we're not having to cope with the commencement of the Tribulation on top of everything else! Sort of puts it all in perspective.

Keeping you and yours in my prayers daily, my friend – and thanks ever so much for yours.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #7:

Good morning Bob.

I thought of you during prayer, and I'm typing to let you know what a better place the world is with you in it. I hope this message finds you in good health.

It's race day. Pray to finish well.

Sincerely

Response #7:

Thanks!

Yes it is a race EVERY day until we cross the finish line and get that "well done!" from our Lord.

(24) Don't you know that all the runners in the stadium run the race, but that only one receives the prize? Run in such a way so as to achieve what you are after. (25) And again, everyone involved in competition exercises self-control in all respects. Those athletes go through such things so that they may receive a perishable crown of victory, but we do it to receive an imperishable one. (26) So as I run this race of ours, I'm heading straight for the finish line; and as I box this bout of ours, I'm making every punch count. (27) I'm "pummeling my body", one might say, bringing myself under strict control so that, after having preached [the gospel] to others, I might not myself be disqualified [from receiving the prize we all seek].
1st Corinthians 9:24-27

Keeping you in my prayers to finish well too, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #8:

Hi Bob,

__ and I are having a discussion about whether there is a right way to interpret Matthew 24:29.

__ is saying that there is a correct way to interpret οὐρανός, while I am arguing that there is no definitive way to interpret it because we have no way of knowing exactly what οὐρανός refers to in this passage.

Thank you for your time,

Response #8:

Good to hear from you.

(29) "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (30) Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Matthew 24:29-30 NKJV

The context here is the second advent, and we see in the following verse that "in heaven" the sign of our Lord (i.e., the cross) will appear and be visible to the inhabitants of the earth. "Heaven" (shamayim in Hebrew, ouranos in Greek), can mean three things or a combination of the three, namely, the sky, the universe, or the "third heaven" (see the link). Since in verse 30 it's the sky (because all will see the sign), and since the falling stars in the previous verse (we call them meteors nowadays) are also a sign which people will be able to see (cf. Is.34:4; Rev.6:13), I would take this to mean the sky here rather than the universe as a whole or the third heaven.

How are you doing?

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #9:

I had a realization just now as I read the Bible where it says that the Lord took up Peter and James and John on the mountain. Remember the formation of Israel around the Ark? Because I was thinking, oh three of them, that is the whole side to the east isn't it? I mean maybe it would be Peter and John and Paul, I don't know. but I was just thinking why 3, or those three, and I just had the image in my mind of the first three tribes on that side of New Jerusalem.

Response #9:

We're not told which apostle's name is on which foundation of the twelve gates of New Jerusalem (Rev.21:12-14). For what it's worth, these would be my choice for the top three too (Paul, Peter and John).

It is interesting that only three were taken up to the Mount of Transfiguration by our Lord. Of course James and John were brothers, so they were of the same tribe (we don't know which one). As with many things in eternity, there will be a lot of "the first shall be last", namely, of believers being more highly rewarded than we might expect from our experiences in this life and the opposite as well. One thing we CAN be sure of: our Lord's judgment is absolutely just and will be carried out in accord with the divine procedures established before time began. Which is why He tells the two brothers . . .

Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Him with her sons, kneeling down and asking something from Him. And He said to her, “What do you wish?” She said to Him, “Grant that these two sons of mine may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on the left, in Your kingdom.” But Jesus answered and said, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?” They said to Him, “We are able.” So He said to them, “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.”
Matthew 20:20-23 NKJV

Happy for Friday here too!

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #10:

Good afternoon,

I recently started Revelation with my Bible study. We did all of the old testament prophets, and I played the long con of getting us to Revelation by starting in Acts. So far it's going pretty smooth, but when we got to the 24 elders there was some disagreement. I reviewed ichthys and held your position that they are angels, and that the fact that they have crowns before crowns have been given out shows that they have to be angels. Unfortunately nobody sided with me. I built a tool a few weeks ago that would put every manuscript and partial we have from the first four centuries next to each other so that they could easily be compared. I figured I could get to the bottom of "you have redeemed us" that shows up in some translations of Rev 5:9 pretty quickly and settle the debate. From what I can tell, it seems like it is at least early and very possibly original. Any insight on that verse that may change things?

When I got stuck there, I started a deeper dive and landed on a theory that the 24 elders are the lineage of Aaron to Joshua. I haven't been able to find this anywhere else so I still hold extreme scepticism for my own theory, and would like your thoughts. The details are:

1 Chronicles 6:3-15 lists the descendants of Aaron. There are 23 including Aaron and ending with Jehozadak. Haggai 1:1 says that Joshua is Jehozadak's son. That would make 24. In Zechariah 3 and 6 we see Joshua given new garments and pre-reward crowns in God's heavenly temple. Then we have the actual promises that were given to Aaron and his descendants.
Exodus 40:15 - An everlasting priesthood.
Numbers 25:10-13 - Reaffirmed with a covenant of peace to Phinehas.
Ezekiel 44:15-16 - The sons of Zadok will enter the sanctuary.
1 Chronicles 23:13 - Aaron's line will offer incense before God (something the 24 elders specifically do).

One objection I can already see is that Joshua was given four crowns that were to the sons of Zephaniah for a memorial. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Response #10:

Thanks for sticking up for me, my friend! Not only have there been no rewards given to human believers when Revelation chapter 5 takes place, but this is also BEFORE the commencement of the Tribulation, and while none of us have as yet been resurrected. But these elders are clearly in their "eternal state" at this point. This is one of the disadvantages of these sorts of Bible studies, namely, everyone is their own teacher so nothing is authoritative and people have to "be convinced" whereas it takes faith in the truth to actually grow.

Regarding Revelation 5:9, there is no "us" in the Greek. It's true that it is present in some mss. but not all and it is a textual mistake. Some scribe put it in by accident and it infected one strain of the tradition but not every one. So how do we know that the textual tradition without "us" is correct? In the following verse it says "them" not us, so the "us" is definitely wrong because "we" cannot be "them" or vice versa. Also, 24 cannot be "from every tribe and tongue and people and nation". And the Greek says "they shall reign" not "we". Finally, will only these 24 reign with Christ? That would be disappointing news for the rest of us, and would contradict scripture:

For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Romans 5:17 NKJV

You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us—and indeed I could wish you did reign, that we also might reign with you!
1st Corithians 4:8 NKJV

If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
2nd Timothy 2:12 NKJV

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:6 NKJV

There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.
Revelation 22:5 NKJV

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #11:

Hi Bob,

Thank you for this, and for the Scripture on the reign of all believers, which I take fully. Two things up front. I am not settled on who the elders are. And I should tell you how I got the material below: I am not a scholar. I read the Greek and Hebrew with lexica and interlinears, and I built a tool that puts the surviving manuscripts of a verse side by side so I can see the witnesses for myself. I also used an AI assistant to help me track down editions and sources and to help me draft this email; the questions are mine, and I have checked the citations I could reach against their sources, but if a point below rests on something a scholar would recognise as a beginner's mistake, that is where it will have come from, and I would rather hear it than not. With that said, here is what I found.

1. The distribution is the reverse of "one strain." Among Greek manuscripts the only one without "us" is Alexandrinus, and there the gap falls exactly at a column break. The only version without it is the Ethiopic. The pronoun is in Sinaiticus in clear ink, in the whole Byzantine tradition, in both Coptic versions, the Syriac, the Armenian, and every Old Latin strand. The earliest witness of all is Hippolytus, who quotes the whole song in Greek in his Commentary on Daniel (4.34, about AD 204) with ἠγόρασας ἡμ ς τ θε , and Cyprian has "emisti nos" around 248. P115, the one papyrus that reaches the verse, preserves only three letters of the line, so it cannot speak. If "us" is an insertion, it was in Rome within a century of John and reached every branch but one. The 1971 UBS committee rated its own omission {C}; the 2024 Editio Critica Maior has reversed NA28 and prints τ θε ἡμ ς.

2. On Sinaiticus. On Ichthys you mention that the ἡμ ς there looked to you like a later alteration of ἡμ ν. I went to the Codex Sinaiticus Project's transcription of folio 327. It records every corrector's touch on that page, down to the single αι inserted three lines above in 5:8, and it records nothing at 5:9: ηγορα| α τω θω ημα εν is first hand. The ECM corrector lists agree. I would be glad to know if you still see it otherwise, since my own look at the image was at screen resolution. I also saw you take ἡμ ν as the original reading; Hoskier has it in minuscule 44 and
about five others. Do you have other support for it?

3. On "we cannot be them." I expected that to be decisive, but the Song of the Sea does exactly this. Moses and all Israel sing (15:1, 21); verse 2 is "my strength and my song"; then verse 13 "the people whom you redeemed," verse 16 "the people whom you acquired" (עַם־זוּ קָנִיתָ, LXX ὃν ἐκτήσω), verse 17 "bring them in and plant them." The singers describe themselves in the third person, and the Septuagint keeps the shift (it even makes verse 1 σωμεν). Psalm 80:6–7 is sharper still: "you fed them bread of tears … you make us a strife to our neighbors," the same people in adjacent lines, and the Greek translator levelled both to ἡμ ς, which is just the smoothing a copyist of Revelation might have done. Gesenius §144p lists abrupt change of person as ordinary poetic style. And it is not only Hebrew: Zechariah's hymn moves from "redemption for his people" to "delivered us" (Luke 1:68–74), and the voice in Revelation 12:10–11 says "our brothers … accuses them … they conquered." You accepted Unger's "dramatic enallage" at Isaiah 52:14 against the critics' emendation, so I think you will grant the device; the question is whether John could use it here.

If he could, your other two points answer the same way. Israel's choir was not the whole of "the people whom you acquired," so "us" need not mean twenty-four are the whole of "every tribe and tongue," and "they will reign" is the community the singers belong to, not a different one.

4. One thing I cannot resolve and would value your judgment on. The subject of "they sang" in 5:9 is carried over from 5:8, the living creatures and the elders together. If "us" stands and is taken strictly, the four living creatures also say they were purchased from the nations. Commentators who keep "us" narrow the singers to the elders on context. How should the Greek be taken there? That seems to me the real foothold for your reading even with the pronoun in the text.

I have no standing to dispute you on the Greek itself, and I don't: that stephanos is the victor's crown, that Greek can drop a direct object, and that Alexandrinus is a strong witness in this book, I take on your authority. Nothing in the text calls the elders human. What I can see for myself is the manuscripts, and there it is one copy against all the rest, at a column seam, which seems a thin basis for "definitely." I would be grateful to know what I am missing.

With thanks, as always,

Response #11:

My pleasure.

1. All mss. are not created equal. It turns out that there are relatively far fewer mss. of Revelation than any other NT book. Aleph is the oldest, but can also have mistakes. Only A is of near equal weight. Byzantine mss. are late and were homogenized so even if we had a thousand of them saying the same thing it wouldn't mean very much. So in terms of witnesses that mean anything, essentially it's 50/50.

In textual criticism there is a principle, lectio difficilior, that is, the more difficult reading is probably the correct one, because scribes and readers who "didn't get it" had a tendency to "correct" mss. In this case, without a direct object, i.e., "made __ of" vs. "made US __", the latter is easier for readers to understand. But Greek frequently leaves out accusative direct objects (my students struggle with this all the time). In such cases, the object has to be understood. Easy to see how "us" would seem right to readers who are indeed part of the "us", but these are angels in view commenting on the salvation of human beings. So "them" is understood, though not written (that wasn't necessary); but the lack of "them" led someone to put in "us" which is incorrect.

Secondly on this point, if "us" were correct, how and why would A have left it out? There is no rationale for it being missing . . . IF it were correct. So the absence of "us" is very strong evidence for "us" not being original. Other later mss. (2, 4, 6, etc.) also lack "us", and, again, that is hard to explain if it were original. How would these all independently have made the same mistake?

In terms of versions, according to Duesterdieck, the Coptic version also lacks it (I haven't checked myself); in terms of the other versions you mention and various church fathers, it's usually possible to find any variation one wishes in some of them. I don't put much stock in these. For one things, if "us" is a mistake (which it is), then it's the kind of mistake translators of version might also be likely to make, so it's not necessarily proof that the Vorlage they were using had "us".

2. Sinaiticus. I do think I see possible evidence of a correction, though it was early if so (see attachment). In any case, as you also write here, Aleph also has "to God" which is not present in many mss. and whose position moves around in the text as well. Both of these things are evidence of expansion of the text.

3. This is apples and oranges. There are parallels for everything, and I don't see these Hebrew poetry parallels as applicable to this Greek prose context; other problems too but I'll leave that for another day as this is already getting way too long; no one has been as "bothered" by any of these other citations as they are by "us/them" here, for obvious reasons in their contexts. The question is only whether or not it makes sense in this context for "us" to become "them". To say "God redeemed US" in one verse then change "us" to "them" in the next verse when referring to the same group is nonsensical. Also of note is the fact that the "they" in the verb also gets changed in some mss. to "we" in another attempt at assimilation. It is true that ABS grades this as "C" in terms of likelihood, but in the end they do print the correct text. Most textual scholars of note in the past have seen "us" as wrong (see Duesterdieck in the Meyer's series of NT commentaries for the list).

4. Good point. Definitive. The four living creatures (cherubs) of verse 8 would have to be part of the "us" if "us" were correct in verse 9.

For me what is really decisive is that this takes place even before the book of Revelation is opened to begin the Tribulation. Therefore this takes place before the resurrection. No rewards before the resurrection. No glory before the resurrection. No completion of the Church before the resurrection (and these 24 ought to be representing the whole of whatever they represent). After giving this issue serious thought it seems to me that the only conclusion that squares with what the rest of scripture have to say is that these are angels. Q.E.D.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #12:

Hi Bob,

An interesting post this week. It's reassuring to know that there are others on alert. I pray it doesn't flag if this goes another seven or how ever many years.

My question: I don't remember anything in the past or in scripture where parents were killing their kids or the kids killing their parents. I know about the sacrifices (or at least think I do) and I know about abortion -- which I see as the same thing except parents don't have to listen to the screams. But the killing phenomenon appears to be new. You know far more history than me. Was there a time in history when parents were killing their kids and vice versa that was as prominent as it is today?

I pray all is well there in L'ville and you're enjoying Indian Summer.

In our Lord Jesus,

Response #12:

Seven years is indeed a long time. And you are right, it might be more. We'll definitely see.

On your question, well, Orestes famously killed his mother for killing his father. And I read this in Paul's commentary about the Law:

Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers.
1st Timothy 1:9 NKJV

Everything else on the list happened frequently in the past, so we assume that this also happened frequently enough to be in the Law. Absalom did not kill his father, David, but he certainly gave it his best shot. I also recall this ditty from a previous century here in the US:

"Lizzy Borden took an axe,
and gave her mother forty whacks;
and when she saw what she had done,
she gave her father forty one."

In our sensationalist culture, we can be sure that anything of this ilk is going to be covered by the media in gruesome detail, because people will watch it. After all, CNN didn't rise to prominence by televising houses that weren't on fire but those that were.

Is this sort of thing more frequent today that in prior years? Perhaps. School shootings certainly are. And that is also no doubt not unrelated to the media attention such things receive.

So there's nothing new under the sun, but my sense is also that the volume is greater today. All in all, you are probably correct that this is another indication of us approaching the end.

Beautiful weather here! Came close to a frost last night, but the blooms survived to dazzle another day. The nasturtiums are mounting a comeback as they enjoy the cooler weather.

Hope you are doing well, my friend! Keeping you in my prayers.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #13:

Thank you, Bob, for the reality check and the cite. I don't know how many times I've read that but it never sank in. I'm discovering that the Holy Spirit makes known to me what I'm ready to understand. It makes no difference whether you tell me or I read it in scripture. A part of growth I suspect and for that I'm thankful.

I'm a child of the 60's, so I remember the riots and violence. I don't remember it being this bad, though. Sometimes my life looks long but in reality, it's just a blink of the eye. I have to keep that in mind. Thank you for your insight.

All is well here. We had a brief bout of fall weather but we'll be back in the 80's in a couple of days. I envy you your nasturtiums. You can make substitute capers out of the buds with a 3% brine. They don't grow here without a lot of work and attention. Thank you again and thank you for your prayers. As always, you remain in mine.

In our Lord Jesus,

Response #13:

There is SO much that has happened in the past of which we are unaware. And so much has happened in the last half century that there is good deal of forgetfulness about what happened previously, even by those who've studied it (or even experienced it). I used to use cultural references in my teaching all the time, but my latest crop of students for the most part is unaware of movies, TV and etc. before the turn of the millennium. Not surprising, I suppose.

Re: "I'm discovering that the Holy Spirit makes known to me what I'm ready to understand." That is true for us all. We probably don't properly appreciate the Spirit and His ministry half as much as we should. We'd certainly feel the loss instantly if it were possible to lose it/Him (as it was in OT times: Ps.51:11).

Thanks for your prayers too, my friend!

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #14:

On using Ai for ICHTHYS. Is it better not to? I have heard stories of there being lists of people who believe the wrong things politically (and it's behind the scenes but I am not even sure who does them)...but for example they had a list of people who bought MAGA hats...and I am struggling to put the thought together here, but it wouldn't be too hard to keep a list of religious beliefs or searches made in AI. Even AI tells you to beware what you put into it, and given people do get flagged for potential violence, who knows what else they also flag.

Response #14:

I wouldn't worry about it – although I do appreciate you looking out for me! I don't think Ichthys has a very noticeable profile, precisely because it stays away from politics and from expressing political opinions.

As to using AI specifically, now, if a person does a Google search, Google often switches into AI mode whether you ask it to or not. AI is already pretty much ubiquitous (even if that is not always obvious). I think if you/Ichthys were being "flagged" or "listed", then most everyone and every site would suffer this to the point where there is no distinction because of volume. Clearly, anyone using Ichthys is a believer (I would hope!). We don't want to deny that this is what we are – ever (Matt.10:32-33).

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #15:

Hi Dr L,

There's just so much good info on ICHTHYS that I feel like it could take a lifetime to learn

Have you been doing alright? Here is a picture where on the front the clock stopped at 6:00 - a reference to the story where the Hatter is trapped at 6:00. The same author did a whole poem in a similar vein:

"'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe...."

There's also a whole philosophy on the clock thing that I thought of you! You see some people are very artsy and whimsical and like logical puzzles, and the thing about reality is that it develops in time, and so that puts a constraint on the possibilities...hence freedom from the clock. Obviously I have spent too much time on this lol.

Response #15:

"Gyre" is actually a word. "Six o'clock" is straight up and down on a watch, but the sun being directly overhead in the Roman system is exactly twelve noon – any day of the year as their hours increased and decreased with the seasons (which is why sundials don't need to change and always work). So indeed, Carroll was right that our subordination to the machine begins with mechanical clocks which have no sympathy for our biorhythms.

No more night in New Jerusalem . . . and no clocks! Looking forward to that (among many other things).

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #16:

That is very interesting! I wonder how time will be different then?

Response #16:

That is an interesting question. But then, everything will be different then. Most of the things that concern us now and occupy our attention now won't exist. No necessary jobs, no money, no debt, no need, no want, no sin, no temptation, no envy of our neighbors, no crime, no violence, no war . . . no evil or darkness. No more tears, sorrow, suffering or death. Just to name a few. It's hard to conceive of life without these things. And that doesn't even touch the blessings and glories that will be ours, wonderful things of which we as yet have no ability to understand or capacity to appreciate – being with our dear Lord and with each other in happiness forever.

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #17:

Thanks, Bob! I'm glad you made it through "day one". The start-up was always good for me, after bidding with a sharp pencil and winning the contract. And, then finally being "on site".on "day one", to put that first shovel in, was always a confident feeling, and then watching things as they were going up. After "day one" I was on my way to get the job completed, then step back and be happy to see the finished product.

I found out that you can't win them all, but I was able to make a 40 year career out of it, and still be in one piece. It was also very stressful at times, as I'm sure that you are experiencing being "in charge", on two or more fronts. However, I loved building things from scratch, and I still miss it all very much. (similar to your wonderful and rewarding ministry). But, at some point I realized that I had to move on. I'm praying that God will continue to keep you "strong", in order for you to continue helping us along for our spiritual growth, etc.

Now I have been spending time studying your offerings and doing a little writing, etc. Besides this, we are somewhat keeping up the place, (the usual necessities), mowing and vegetable gardening, and looking at __'s beautiful flower gardens of many different and colorful flowers, bushes, and trees). Not to forget all of that good cooking that she comes up with every day! We are truly blessed to be living in this beautiful neck of the woods, in our God-centered home! There's always something to do, and time is flying by very fast. Our next home will be so much better, and the pace will be a very relaxing one, with no cares to bog us down! (1 Cor. 2:9). The "eyes" [sic] have it! Yes, indeed! Looking eagerly ahead to that Day. Aye, aye! ....."Yes, I am coming soon". Amen. Come, Lord Jesus". (Rev 22:20).

You never stop learning about the true purpose of life, and I'm glad that I have God,__, the children, and you in my life to help me get through. "It is the Spirit Who gives life, the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life". ((John 6:63).

Thanks again, Bob, for your continued prayers. You are in ours every day too. Let me know if you have any new prayer requests. Take care of yourself!

Your friend, in Jesus, the One Who is our Life, the Way, and the Truth,

Response #17:

Thanks!

It'll be 'a week', but I know the Lord will get me through.

I appreciate your prayers, my friend.

We had some good blooms this year:

Thanks for your encouraging email!

In Jesus,

Bob L.

Question #18:

Hi Bob,

On the subject verse, Ezekiel 14:3: can I understand the English translation in NIV and KJV as accurate? If so, I can't a lot of difference between what the Israelites worshiped and what many of us worship. E.g., Marx, the virgin Mary and recently, what I read in the news, a small town in Iowa delivered the invocation for a council meeting with a prayer to "our dark lord, Satan." Add to that, perhaps the adulation of Taylor Swift, etc.? Is that not idolatry in their heart?

This weeks post, (10/10) which was very encouraging, BTW, even rereading your comments to me. I'm rereading the prophets, now, and it sounds exactly like they're speaking of us today. In the Lord's messages to them, the promise of taking care of His own is always included. Even for those taken to Babylon, yet those who persisted on staying in Jerusalem had a different prophecy. Do you suppose we're in for a similar fate?

I pray all is well up yonder and you've healed from your accident and surgery.

In our Lord Jesus,

Response #18:

Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
Ezekiel 14:3 KJV

"Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all?"
Ezekiel 14:3 NIV

These are very close and each reflects well what is in the Hebrew text. It is a very interesting verse and passage, because it makes clear that physical idolatry, i.e., worshiping pagan gods, is the result of mental idolatry. As often said in this ministry, we are as we think (cf. Prov.23:7). What we say comes forth from what we think and so does what we do.

"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies."
Matthew 5:18-19 NKJV

In terms then of "what is mental idolatry", it is the mental attitude of preferring anything or anyone to the Lord.

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Ephesians 5:5 NKJV

Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
Colossians 3:5 NKJV

God's rebuking of His people Israel in Ezekiel chapter fourteen would be parallel to a rebuke of the church-visible today. In each case, those putatively His who were in fact not so or only marginally so incurred His wrath. The same would be true today of anyone calling themselves a Christian who puts greed for the things of this world as a stumbling block before their faces.

The major difference is that the USA is not ancient Israel. Most people here are not and have never been believers, and many if not most do not identify themselves as such. In Ezekiel's day, all of Israel's neighbors and the world at large were committed to pagan worship, but it is Israel that is being called to account because they were supposed to love the Lord. God wants all to be saved, and He has a different standard for believers versus unbelievers. Any believer who is guilty of putting money or fame or success or pleasure or anything else between themselves and the Lord is asking for big trouble. There is a lot of that today, no doubt. The only real question is how much of the church-visible consists of poor believers and how much of unbelievers (we know that the number of those not lukewarm is small). If more believers were zealous for the Lord in a godly way, the way He desires, the instances you cite might not disappear, but we as a nation would be less likely to incur God's wrath . . . because the remnant would be sufficiently "salty" for Him to spare us (see the link).

Re: "Do you suppose we're in for a similar fate?" I think that the Lord knows who belongs to Him (2Tim.2:19), and that anyone who is walking closely with the Lord has nothing to fear at any time or under any adverse circumstances. That doesn't mean that the Tribulation will be pleasant, but it does mean that we who have placed our entire hope in Him can be confident that He will be with us and taking case of us throughout, carrying out His purpose for us, whatever that may be, for our eternal benefit.

I'm doing pretty well. It's very busy but I got past a large obstacle last week with that meeting. Another seven weeks or so and things should lighten up.

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend (and thanks much for yours!).

In Jesus,

Bob L.

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