http://ichthys.com/ 
Eschatology Issues CLXX

Question #1:
Hey Dr. Luginbill, 

Just got back from a week-long vacation with my family. It was good overall and much needed. But I'm glad to be back to my regular routine. Vacation allowed me to reflect on a few things (in general), and I've made some adjustments (like getting a gym membership and adjusting my meal plans). 

A topic was raised about teaching verse explanation and teaching application. From my own experience of reading Ichthys, you seem to have balanced these two well, not only explaining the various passages and the topics related to them, but also taking the time to encourage and exhort, and to teach how to apply what has been explained from the text. My view is that good, solid, serious, in-depth Bible teaching strikes a good balance between the two extremes of focusing too much on verse explanation or on application to the detriment of the other (major problems we see prevalent in Laodicea). 

However, someone mentioned (not sure if this is true) that many of the great preachers of the past (not that I'm personally a fan of any of them) spent about 70% of their sermons teaching application, and roughly 30% explaining the meaning of the verses and topics they were examining. Of course, this is a man-made ratio, and there is no rule or biblical command on how much one should spend on each, specifically in proportion to the other. But my understanding is that the Bible contains so much that has to be explained and understood, so that teaching good application is dependent upon a proper understanding of the text, which can require significant time to explain (depending on the verses and topic in question). However, teaching people how to apply the truth (application) also counts as serious Bible teaching as well. Both are equally important. 

With that said, would you say that most of a teacher's time should be spent explaining verses or explaining how to apply them? Which would you say requires more time and attention? Or could we just simply say that a teacher should be doing both without emphasizing one over the other, and just leave it at that? As in, don't worry about the specifics, just teach as you feel led by the Spirit? Not really something to worry about, perhaps? 

On another note, response #17 in this week's Saturday postings stood out to me. I just wanted to ask for clarity regarding the statement, "What about those who don't ask [for forgiveness]? My application is to forgive them anyway, and also to try to avoid ever harboring enmity towards anyone." Are you saying that forgiving a person from the heart who doesn't ask for forgiveness is an area of application (optional)? I ask because __ believes __ is not obligated to forgive someone from the heart unless they ask for forgiveness. This raised red flags for me and could partially explain why __ thinks and behaves the way he does (struggling with anger and bitterness and having a hard time letting things go). Obviously, if we are talking about forgiveness in the sense of reconciling a relationship with someone, no, you can't reconcile with someone who doesn't want a relationship with you or who would have a terrible influence. But __ is talking about forgiving from the heart, not creating or mending a relationship. 

Regarding response # 8 in this week's posting, the following part caught my attention: 

"But, secondly, anyone who would knowingly misquote and/or misapply scripture just to support their (undoubtedly false) position is a charlatan whose salvation is at the very least in doubt (and in many cases we are talking about unbelievers and cult followers here). Sounds a lot like false teaching of "the rapture" and its advocates: there isn't a passage in the Bible that teaches a pre-Trib resurrection, but proponents twist anything they think may help into service for their dubious cause."

Overall, I agree, but (for clarity) you weren't suggesting that there can't be great believers who hold to this false view just because they get this one teaching wrong, were you? Of course, the majority of believers are lukewarm, and I would wager most of them are pre-tribbers (and we know why they love this false teaching so much). But I do believe I have known and do know some fine believers who adhere to this unbiblical teaching. 

Speaking of it, I decided to debunk this false teaching (as well as soul sleep) while examining James 5:7 ("Be patient, then, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s coming). Two topical studies somewhat related to the verse. You mentioned that you used Matthew 24 as a source to refute someone who disagreed, and that inspired me to do the same. You are right; that chapter, specifically the verses you mentioned, is unassailable. 

Continuing to pray for you. 

In the name of our Lord and Savior, 
Response #1:
1) Re: percentage of effort. I suppose that might be a useful exercise for someone preaching sermons – which I do not do. Or for a true face-to-face teacher maybe . . . but really isn't it a question of teaching and illustrating one's teaching? If one is teaching a book or a topic, it might make a little difference. In writing, Ichthys' ministry, or in producing podcasts and the like, such as Bible Academy (link), in either case you want to do justice to the verse or subpoint of the topic, and illustrations will be used only to make the point needed to be made. Email responses are a different animal entirely, and that is probably what you are thinking of when you talk about the ratio with Ichthys. 

Of course, when I am writing back to an individual who has a question, a large percentage of the time the question has to do at least in part with application matters and so it has to be addressed in those terms. Since it's a personal relationship situation too, not "teaching a congregation", I tend to be more free with personal stories, illustrations and the like that might be helpful for that person at that time. But if I am teaching through writing, e.g., the book of Colossians, the "teaching application" part is usually very specific and direct as well as being general enough for everyone. 

Having heard and read a lot of sermons in my life, I would draw a very sharp distinction between what passes for "teaching" in venues that use that vehicle and what happens at Ichthys. To me, it's "apples and oranges". In any case, the proof is in the pudding, isn't it? So if we are talking about "great preachers of the past" or even the present, I can honestly say that I've never gotten anything of any particular value from any I've ever heard or read. If I were teaching face to face instead of writing, I would hope that the reaction upon leaving a session from those who are truly interested in the Word would be "that was helpful for my spiritual growth" rather than, "that was fun, but I couldn't tell you I learned anything". So if you are actually trying to TEACH, making things a little less dry from time to time in an appropriate way is not a bad idea. But if you are only trying to ENTERTAIN, throwing in a few Bible verses isn't going to help anyone much in the end.
Proclaim the Word! Keep at it, whether circumstances are favorable or not! Reprove, rebuke, [and] encourage with all patience [in your] teaching!
2nd Timothy 4:2
2) Forgiveness: The fact that our Lord tells us we have to forgive those who ask for forgiveness does NOT mean that we do NOT have to forgive those who are not asking for it. Here's what I read in the Bible:
"This, then, is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’ For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
Matthew 6:9-15 (cf. Matt.18:35; Mk.11:26; Lk.6:37)
And it also makes biblical sense too, doesn't it? We are supposed to be walking in love. How can you walk in love if you are cherishing grievances in your heart against others? Isn't the essence of agape love forgiveness?
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
1st Corinthians 13:4-7 NIV
3) Re: "Great believers who hold to this false view (i.e., of the pre-Trib "rapture")". It's a good point. I certainly wouldn't want to put myself in God's place, neither to proclaim who is "great" down here or who is lukewarm. Luther and Calvin by all accounts did not believe in a literal Millennium. But that was a different time. Today there is little excuse for anyone who is styling himself a Bible teacher not to have done his homework so as to be prepared before taking up the job in earnest. We all have to grow. I was a rapture adherent myself in my preparation phase – because my mentor was. He never changed his view, nor have many who likewise were blessed by his ministry. But if someone is really interested in the truth, then they will seek to determine the correctness of any position they teach. It was in such an exercise, namely, trying to defend that false teaching which had been handed down to me, that it became obvious that it was wrong. 
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
James 3:1 NIV 
My "beef" as expressed in the prior email you reference was directed primarily against vehement apologists for this false doctrine who will not even listen to scripture in their zeal for this falsity. You mention the success you had by quoting Matthew 24. It is irrefutable. But one individual who took me to task for pointing out that there is no resurrection before our Lord's return declared in the face of our Lord's own words in Matthew 24 that he "didn't believe in proof texts" – as if scripture were no guide to the truth, only "teachings" he'd received from others. That is how we got the RC church. 

The "rapture" is a dangerous false doctrine, especially at the moment when we are getting very close to the end. How will those who've been weaned on this tripe react when the Tribulation begins? How will that not undermine their faith, causing them to doubt everything else they've believed (even what is true)? And how does such a "feel good" false teaching not influence them to "not worry about the Tribulation" since they'll never have to go through it – they think? How will that not contribute to their spiritual immaturity and lukewarmness, and to being completely unprepared for what is to come?

Good to hear that vacation went well, and congrats on your successful "debunking"!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #2:
Hey Dr. Luginbill, 

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying I agreed with the 30/70 ratio. It was just something someone mentioned that gave me a springboard to ask my question. I wasn't attempting to show any support for "sermons" or those who give them either. 

I did have the email responses in mind as well, but your studies do contain at least some encouragement and exhortation to apply the truth (and how to do so), even if most of your writing is spent teaching and explaining the biblical text and related subjects. "Preparing for Tribulation"- A Tribulation Code of Conduct" is one example that comes to mind, even if that may be an exception(?). Would you agree with this analysis? Let me put it this way: 2 Timothy 4:2 accurately describes what you do at Ichthys, and I hope that is a great encouragement to you. Perhaps that explains what I'm trying to say. On the other hand...maybe I'm not articulating very well, and I hope I didn't offend you in any way by characterizing your studies as something you don't see them as. But even if that is true, it is a moot point to me because your studies are great and truly do speak for themselves (the proof truly is in the pudding). They have contributed highly to my spiritual growth, and I agree with you when you told me a while back that I learned more from Ichthys in one month than I did attending churches for twenty years. That speaks volumes right there. 

Yes, I also never got much out of a typical sermon. People (especially certain family members) seem to think I'm not in a church because of disagreements, but that's not entirely true (not to get too off topic here). False doctrine isn't a good thing, and, depending on the believers we associate with and the teachings involved, bad company corrupts good morals (but again, that will depend on the believers in question). But that isn't my biggest concern. No, for me, I haven't been able to stick with a church because the services have been all but a complete waste of time (lacking good, solid Bible teaching). No point in attending a church that isn't fulfilling its primary purpose (providing the critical spiritual nutrition necessary for spiritual growth). And if the truth isn't being taught seriously and in-depth (very little of anything), then chances are that my fellowship with the other believers attending that same church will be limited (although that, too, can depend). It's possible to make friends and cultivate deep relationships. But I have found that to be a rare and difficult thing (hence, I have, for now, stuck with the Saturday Zoom meetings). And I do believe you will always be my pastor-teacher (and I credit your work, through the Holy Spirit, for greatly helping to establish my own teaching ministry). 

When the topic of verse explanation and application first came up, I became a little discouraged because this wouldn't even be an issue if my family were more open to the truth and were willing to give Ichthys a try. And it's funny that you mention the pudding speaking for itself, because that is what first came to my mind. If they were open, interested, and engaged with Ichthys, all other hindrances, issues, and objections they probably have now wouldn't be a problem; the teachings would speak for themselves. They just don't know what they are missing. But if they aren't interested, they aren't interested (I can only pray, so nothing new there). 

Re: "But if I am teaching through writing, e.g., the book of Colossians, the "teaching application" part is usually very specific and direct as well as being general enough for everyone."

I probably know what you're talking about, but could you give an example or two? 

Re: "The fact that our Lord tells us we have to forgive those who ask for forgiveness does NOT mean that we do NOT have to forgive those who are not asking for it. "

Perhaps it should have been obvious to me that you didn't believe otherwise. It's just that words (depending on how they are used) can throw me off at times. So when I read "My application is," I wasn't sure if you were suggesting whether this was an area of application or not. The way I see it, it is good to be absolutely certain (I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask). I wholeheartedly agree, and you can probably see why some of my other family members and I were so disturbed to hear this. Prayers for __ would be appreciated. Unbelievers may not have a saving relationship with Christ (they aren't forgiven in terms of inheriting eternal life because of rejecting Jesus Christ), but Christ did forgive them their sins, so that sin is no longer the issue. Why would we not forgive others if they sin against us, even if they didn't ask for forgiveness? 

On the rapture, understood on everything else you wrote. Disturbing to hear this individual doesn't believe in proof texts for the same reason you gave. 

In Christ, 
Response #2:
I think you and I see "eye to eye" on the "teaching application" issue. We both have a very good idea of what "not to do" (99% of Sunday morning sermons). A funny story that has nothing to do with anything is not going to redound to the spiritual edification of the listeners. Not that we have anything against funny stories. In the average sermon, they may be the only thing that wakes us up or that we remember the next day. Not entirely our fault (except for being "there" instead of somewhere teaching is going on). 

Example: In the Hebrew series, chapter ten, I spend a good deal of time explaining Hebrews 10:24-25 precisely because it is so often misunderstood and misapplied. In the course of that lengthy explanation, I draw contrasts and parallels with present day "churchianity" and include a long section on "egregious trends" in the present day church-visible (at the link). Now these things are not directly present in the passage; one could say that to some degree similar things are in the background at the Jerusalem church at that time; but I go on at length about this there because it is an important "application" of this historical problem to present abuses, something which believers ought to know and recognize (and which most can't be expected to "put together" for themselves); finally, part of my teaching of "application" there is to drive home the point that the general misapplication of this passage as "you should be going to church" is wrong – in order to help liberate believers feeling guilty to no purpose by helping them see the truth: we assemble for mutual encouragement through the truth, but if the truth is lacking, then it's all for naught.
In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good.
1st Corinthians 11:17 NIV 
So "the teaching of application" is important when and if it is legitimate and fairly direct, springing from the Bible, either verse or topic. But "the teaching of application" in most sermons is usually the opposite, and that is the problem. What I mean by that is, "I want to preach a sermon on the subject of church staff; let me root around in the Bible and see if I can find a verse or two to give me the excuse to preach whatever I want about that": "Israel leaned on his staff . . . and died" – a paraphrase of Genesis which I actually heard preached in this context . . . as a funny illustration. More often, "All the other churches are doing series about family, love, marriage, relationships, so I better pull together some verses, stories and pop-psychology and do a series myself in order to boost attendance". This is application (of an often incorrect and dubious nature) leading teaching – or actually merely using the veneer of supposed teaching to give it authority and panache.

This principle applies to false doctrine too. Rapture proponents for example love to scour scripture to find passages which clearly have nothing to do with the topic but which seem (to them, when viewed from a very slanted and often English-only perspective) to offer ammunition for their position. It's been said that you can use the Bible to prove anything. That is only true when you go to the Bible for proof of what you believe already with no intention of changing your mind. What we are supposed to be doing is going to the Bible to let it direct us in the Spirit – and then make whatever corrections we need to make if we have been wrong about anything.

Re: "Why would we not forgive others if they sin against us, even if they didn't ask for forgiveness?" In my experience and observation, while I agree with you, forgiveness is VERY difficult for many if not most people. Whatever the reason, anger, arrogance, self-importance, umbrage, hurt, desire for revenge, and countless other mental sins, I believe I'm correct in saying that most people have a hard time letting go. They may not always be obvious and upfront and open about it, but that hardness is usually down there. And for unbelievers, it is often directed (entirely unjustifiably) at God.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #3:
Hey Dr. Luginbill, 

Re: "This is application (of an often incorrect and dubious nature) leading teaching – or actually merely using the veneer of supposed teaching to give it authority and panache."

Well said, and that answers it (nothing left for me to ask, really)! The example you gave from Hebrews is a good one, and it is also the kind of general approach I use when writing. Really helps to summarize the problem. People just have such itching ears these days (not surprising, and something we already knew). They define what Bible teaching should be according to what they want, not based on what it should be and how it should be done. 

The way I see it, if anyone were to benefit from Ichthys, they would have to be interested in the truth to some degree without judging the book by its cover (you have to actually read the studies and let them speak for themselves!). I get that Ichthys isn't for everyone (perhaps the studies are a bit too long for some), but people have to get fed well somewhere, and finding other serious Bible teaching ministries is rare and difficult. 

Well said on everything else. Understood and agreed. 

In His grace and power, 

Thank you for this, my friend. 
Response #3:
Re: "They define what Bible teaching should be according to what they want, not based on what it should be and how it should be done." That really does hit the nail on the head. It's not as though there were hundreds of thousands of believers in this country bemoaning the fact that they couldn't find anywhere to be fed through the Word. If there were, the Lord would provide. And as far as I'm concerned, He has already provided, and bountifully so, through Ichthys and Bible Academy and growing new ministries such as yours and Steven's. The problem is not really a supply problem. People are generally happy with their churches and what's going on there. That is why they go there and support them – with work and money and everything else. This is why I am skeptical of trying to find potential listeners by going to local churches. Anyone who is a regular is likely going to be perfectly fine with what they're being given (usually nothing at all, or at least nothing truly good). If they WERE interested in the truth, they would be looking elsewhere and the Lord would eventually lead them to some place where they could actually grow.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
[p.s., special appeal to any and all who have felt the need to contribute to this ministry over the years but have been unable to do so (because it doesn't accept them): please consider blessing Bible Academy with your godly generosity.]
Question #4:
Has the Psalms 83 war already occurred or is it an event to happen shortly before the start of the 7 year tribulation? Your knowledge on this subject would be greatly appreciated. 
Thank you!
Response #4:
Good to make your acquaintance.

No, there is no record of any sort of grand conspiracy of these nations assembled against Israel historically, and certainly not in Asaph's time. Many of his psalms are prophetic and this one certainly is. So while it has application to early attacks on Israel in the past, it's main interpretation is of a confederacy surrounding Israel in the future. 

This will happen three times during the Tribulation. The first two times will find the armies of the southern alliance attempting to destroy Israel but they will be defeated in both instances by the forces of revived Rome and Babylon (led by antichrist). The third time will be at the battle of Armageddon when the beast musters the military forces of the entire world together to accomplish that satanic purpose. But our Lord will destroy them all. 

As to which of these three this psalm corresponds, we may say that all of the nations mentioned were neighbors or near neighbors at the time of writing. However, since Assyria in particular is used prophetically to refer to antichrist's forces elsewhere (especially in the book of Nahum; see the link), this can be taken as an example of the "Day of the Lord Paradigm" (see the link), and thus likely refers in the main to Armageddon. At that time, the final injunction of the prayer will be answered in full as our Lord destroys them all (e.g., Rev.19:21):
Let them know that you, whose name is the LORD— that you alone are the Most High over all the earth.
Psalm 83:18 NIV
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #5:
Robert - thanks for your response to my question. I’m not sure I fully understand your answer but I will do more studying and praying for understanding. So you’re saying Psalms 83 refers to 3 separate wars occurring in the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation (Great Tribulation )?

I am new to your website ichthys.com but I look forward to exploring it much more. I am a self taught Christian trying to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. I will certainly stay in touch with you and the ministry. One more question - does your ministry observe the Sabbath ( 7th day of the week )?
Thanks, God Bless
Response #5:
There are three occasions during the Tribulation where Israel is attacked. Twice during the first half of the seven years, the second occasion being the one wherein antichrist takes up residence in Jerusalem at the end of that campaign, and once during the second half, the arraying of antichrist's army for Armageddon. You will find these matters discussed in detail in CT 3B: Antichrist and his Kingdom (at the link).

Regarding literal sabbath-day observance, since Christ is the end of the law for righteousness (Rom.10:4), and since the single day fulfillment of the fourth commandment has been transformed in the Spirit to the everyday at all times rest of faith (see the link), the answer is no (see the link in HE 4, "The New Sabbath").
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Colossians 2:16-17 NKJV
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #6:
Hi Robert, hope you are well, let me know.

Attached is a portion of an email you sent. I was studying Jeremiah and it says that if the people repented, God would not forgive even their sincere repentance after a certain point. Am I picking this up incorrectly? If not, how does this square with what you wrote? Is there in fact a point where God will refuse to forgive or am I just reading this wrong?

Are you fully back to 'normal' yet?

Your friend,
Response #6:
In the instance you cite, we have God dealing with the entire people of Israel, not individuals. The nation, which was His special people, was the entity which received the judgment, not individual believers. Individuals, granted, suffered for the apostasy of the majority, but individuals who belonged to Him were protected, Jeremiah and Baruch, to name two of whom we know. So this is an apples and oranges comparison. 

To put it the other way, in times when Israel was largely doing God's will, say, under David's reign, there was no such divine judgment – but individual believers who rebelled from the Lord were judged (cf. Ps.14:1-6). Today, there is no "holy nation" apart from the Church, the collective Body of Christ throughout the world.

I'm doing well. Working on getting back in shape now and trying to recover my stamina. 

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #7:
Actually I am sick at this time. I think I aged about a decade in three months. I am very tired and because of __ not very mobile. This has kept me from church. Will you please pray for my health? Also, does God understand that "witnessing" and also praying is very tiring and hard! 
Response #7:
I will say a prayer for your health.

Re: "Does God understand that witnessing and also praying are very tiring and hard!" I assure you that God knows everything – and knew everything in absolute and total detail before He created anything. Nothing could and nothing can happen without it having been foreordained.
Many, O LORD my God, are Your wonderful works
Which You have done;
And Your thoughts toward us
Cannot be recounted to You in order;
If I would declare and speak of them,
They are more than can be numbered.
Psalm 40:5 NKJV

How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.
Psalm 139:17-18 NKJV

"Who has performed and done it,
Calling the generations from the beginning?
‘I, the LORD, am the first;
And with the last I am He.’ ”
Isaiah 41:4 NKJV
I am certain that the Lord takes into account absolutely every detail of our situations, knowing full well what is hard for us and what is easy, what is opposed and where there is an open road, who has strength, opportunity and resources and who is limited. 
"For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more."
Luke 12:48b NKJV
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #8:
It's my pleasure, Bob! I hope it still helps a little bit.

Yes, very busy here. Unfortunately there's still a lot of work to do. It's going well but slow progress at the moment - slower than we'd hoped.

Work was very challenging a couple of weeks ago but I got through it. We're still short staffed. My health hasn't been too good either. There's a lot going on all at once so I need to be gentle with myself. Also, I got a letter through the post to say I've been called for jury service. I can really do without it but I've got no choice. Hopefully, I won't be on a case and I'll get sent home - we'll see. Either that or I'll end up in a long juicy murder case!

I've still been managing to stick with my studies in CT. Just taking it steady. It's tough to do it on workdays though because I'm so tired. I'm still plugging away at it though.

How are you doing, Bob? I know you're very busy at home too but I hope things are a bit easier and you're still making good progress with your healing. 

Life feels nuts at the moment and the world is nuttier than ever. Our top priority is the Lord - keeping our eyes fixed on Him and walking closely with Him. It's a fight to the end but the reward is beyond measure.

In Jesus
Response #8:
Your input is very helpful indeed!

I didn't know that one got jury summons in the UK too (makes sense; just never heard of it). Hope you can get out of it quickly. It really is annoying when you have things to do. I'm apparently "of an age" where they no longer summon a person, but my mom kept getting these in her 70's in Michigan. Over here, they don't pay enough in a week to compensate for a day's parking, but in ancient Athens, the retirees were wild to get on juries as they paid very well (about half as much as a skilled workman would make in a day).

Your project seems to be morphing! That would be a very large, expensive and difficult project, I would think. I really need to do my place, but to be honest I would need to have set the thing on fire or blow it up first it's such a mess. Almost better to tear down that part of the house first. But then the whole place is more or less in that same shape.

I'm sorry to hear that you are dealing with health issues on top of everything else, my friend. I'll be keeping that in prayer. I'm doing pretty well, but I gained a lot of weight in this latest ordeal and getting it off is going to be deuce difficult. The knees are barking back and my trying to stretch out the exercise and my appetite has increased if anything. I did get started on the summer research push today. It's still in the "very painful since I haven't been doing this for a bit" phase, so I just need to push through with that too. Gardening is going well. Lots of roses and peonies, irises and poppies so far. It'll be a minute before the summer flowers arrive, but at least most of the hard work is now out of the way (just weeding and maintenance mostly). Other home front projects like fence repair await, but I'm going to try to keep up a rhythm with the research and not let myself get distracted. Don't know if I told you, but my chair twisted my arm to run for vice-chair for the fall (one semester). I really didn't want that but it's good to stay on his good side. It'll be more admin but I do get out of chairing personnel (against the bylaws). Not sure how that will work out since we don't have a suitable person on the committee to do the job (that'll have to be my chair's problem).

Things are indeed "nuttier than ever" in the world. I'm watching events in the Middle East with more than a little interest. It'll be beyond interesting to see what happens this fall – one way or another. On the one hand, I'm not sure I've got an extra seven years of "juice" left; on the other hand, having a seven year reprieve is something I wouldn't turn down. Blessedly, it's not up to us. And as you say, either way, "It's a fight to the end but the reward is beyond measure." Amen!

Thanks for your help and your prayers – keeping you and your in mine day by day.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #9:
Hi Bob,

Yes, we get jury summons over here too. I've done well to avoid it for this long. The pay for it here isn't too great either. Ah well - you gotta do what you gotta do.

Our project is looking pretty rough too! It's been on the agenda since we moved here. Amazing how much you can save if you're able to do a lot of the work yourself. It's just hard work and takes longer but we'll get there ... eventually. 

I'm glad to hear you're doing pretty well. I think exercising and losing weight was so much easier when we were younger. My stamina is still good but my joints bark at me too now! So I have to be a bit more gentle which isn't as much fun. Keep pushing on with the research, Bob, and the flowers sound beautiful too. I didn't know you were running for vice-chair for the fall. You must have been doing too good a job at chairing personnel.

What are your thoughts on events in the Middle East? I'm watching too. Tensions are very high there. I went for a walk today and I was thinking - in some ways I hope it does begin this fall because then we'd be with the Lord sooner. But if not, I'll take a seven year reprieve too - the Lord knows best. We'll soon see. I want to be here to help anyone I can too.

Thanks for your prayers - keeping you in mine too.

In Jesus
Response #9:
I'm impressed with your home improvement skills! I try to stay away from anything involving gas or electricity myself. If I can just get this place reorganized and cleaned up this summer without it throwing a monkey-wrench into my research, I'll be happy (or should I say "spanner"?).

Yes, I'm pretty sure my chair was nervous about the "other person" who signed up to run for the job and I had done a lot of the heavy lifting for everyone, him included, as chair of personnel last year. As we say over here, "no good deed goes unpunished". But at least it will get me out of that job next year (a blessing!); even if I'm working on the committee, it's not the same as when the deadlines fall on your own head.

It is very interesting. Personally, if I had to guess based upon current events, I'd be mighty skeptical of a fall start. I know things are in turmoil over in the Mideast and plenty "nutty", as you put it, over here. Also, tech is doing some very scary things. But AI isn't ready to take over the world yet. I asked it for some bibliography on Themistocles and it cited me a book with a title, author (actual Greek historian), press and date – but the book didn't exist! When I "called it out", it apologized and said it was "hallucinating", LOL! And as bad as things are in Middle East, I don't see any pan-Islamic movement brewing up at the moment (quite the opposite in fact). And I also don't see any religious/political movement with the power and charisma necessary to propel an antichrist to world domination. 

Of course, as mentioned many times, things could look "ducky" five minutes before the Tribulation begins and there would still be plenty of time, given the likely pace of events once it starts in the absence of the Spirit's restraining ministry (link), to still put everything in place exactly as the Bible prophesies. So we'll just have to see. As you say, "the Lord knows best" and we will take either development in stride, being grateful for any reprieve – and being grateful for every ounce of prior spiritual preparation if we don't get one.

Thanks for your prayers too, my friend! Let me know how the jury thing goes.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #10:
Hi Bob,

I know what you mean about gas and electricity. We stay away from anything involving gas and __ helps us with basic electrical stuff, an electrician before he retired.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on current events, a fall start etc. I'm thinking the same way. I know what you mean about AI as well. I asked it something once (can't remember what now) but I knew that part of its answer was wrong. So I corrected it and it said I was right and apologized to me too! As you say, Bob, we'll take it all in our stride. And we'll continue to be at peace through trusting the Lord and resting in Him.

I hope you've had a good day. Work was pretty brutal today. Haven't had a day that busy in a long time. I got through okay though and tomorrow's day list looks a bit easier. Think I'll have an early night tonight.

I'll let you know how the jury thing goes.

Take care, Bob!

In Jesus
Response #10:
I hope today went better for you. Ended up doing a lot of yard work today in lieu of research (as it turned out); but I'll be back into that grind tomorrow. Yards are in pretty good shape now. We've had a lot of rain and the nasturtiums are sprouting and the zinnias are just starting to come up.

Re: "And we'll continue to be at peace through trusting the Lord and resting in Him." Amen to that, my friend! As long as we are doing that, we have nothing to fear in or from this world and its present ruler. This will all be over soon enough and there is nothing but blessing and glory on the other side. Meanwhile, we are eager to be pleasing to our Lord no matter what happens – we'll take whatever comes.

Thanks for keeping me in the loop!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #11:
Hello Dr L,

This might not be something you can answer, and that is fine. 

I am not saying this for pity or anything like that. But genuinely, I suppose you could say, if you had a soldier who had different limitations, and they aren't trying to elicit anything but just trying to work out 'so how do I conceptualize this right to (do what God wants).' And there are others in a similar way who may struggle. I don't mean to boast but I have done a lot of work even just to get to this point. Like I haven't lived and done normal things I possibly should have. I don't think most can do that and get here, and even here I would say, yeah I really still don't know a lot of basics (and I am over 35!).

There are two things.

-The first is that Hellen Keller once said that deafness separates you from people. So hopefully I won't sound crazy in a minute. Much of what the Bible asks is loving each other. However it relies on their being a foundation for this that you have to get outside of the Bible. Like in the Book of Jonah, it can like not knowing your right hand from your left (I mean this literally and metaphorically), or other such basic things, and then getting the command to build the Ark (or the Temple). 

Unless the Lord does a miracle and gives you supernatural knowledge you aren't going to be able to do much of what it asks like almost everyone else. With each command you are sitting there thinking, oh ok, so this implies things should work this way, and He is saying that the normal response is that, but instead to do this. I hope I am making sense lol. Verses often reference how the normal way is, but we don't know that (people like me) and so we are learning oh, ok, that is interesting to learn the normal way... 

It is not as simple as just learning it on your own. Because you won't even know what exactly you are missing, let alone replicate the conditions you get during an upbringing to learn it, and let me tell you, no one cares or will help you. So then you think, so what does that mean for me? I guess it is like being mentally disabled and you just do it to the degree you understand, but that means your role might be more like the blind man the Lord healed, or Lazarus, and not like are more conventional role, let alone any sort of 'great' one. You don't know what normal boundaries are, or how to discern things because it relies on a foundation you just don't have, and you KNOW you are missing information, basic information, and have to decide on situations that you just don't know. An extreme example might be someone mentally disabled who doesn't know that the stranger in front of them is showing all the signs they are a predator. Should this person just have a rule not to interact with strangers? But what about all those verses that imply that is wrong? Etc.

Would you say I have things right?

-The second overlaps this first one for me, but it can also apply to many others with different contexts.

When I read the ICHTHYS posting, some of them made me so happy. I was really excited and began to love the person behind the posting. But for the first time, because I've always been like that, part of me said, but you know they don't want that. They don't want you. Because as I have said I've always been happy and excited and willing with other believers. And I don't know why, but my whole life has shown me, they do not want it. My family, my sort-of-friends, I struggle to think of ANYONE. And, I know people are not obligated to reciprocate like that. Even if I really like them, they have the right to not want anything to do with me. 

And so I was walking yesterday with tears, and I was praying, and saying that I don't blame others. But where does that leave me? What do all those verses about loving others mean for me? I feel I am really on the bottom of everything. I've learned I shouldn't keep after people when I realize they don't want it/me. So, I mean, seeing it seems to happen with everyone...at first I thought, maybe I am sort of a hermit then. Just in my own corner, and reading the Bible and Bible study, and doing basic prayers He asks, and an outsider even with the current Church in a way.

Anyway, later on a verse came up in my mind, where in Ezekiel the Lord says to mark everyone who sighs over what is happening. And I realized, He wants it. No one else might but He does, because there were people on the bottom then too, and they would have been in that group whose heart was in the right place (the foundation of which is focus on Him). I can only imagine how some at the top would react if they were not marked but this lowly thing they discounted was. But it does matter to Him. So I think the answer is to try to stay focused on Him, and my heart will align, and not to pressure my way in, that I may be a bit hermitish, but if I focus on Him, I should want the good things He wants and respond as He wants, regardless of how others would react.

Do you think I have it?

I hope I didn't come off badly. I tried to be as open and honest as I could because that's the only way to get to where the better way is,
PS: I don't want to overwhelm you with emails, but on the first one: it is not the same as Moses being hard of speech or things like that (not that I am discounting him). It is like, when I read about that verse that a parent of course wouldn't give their child a snake instead of a fish, I learned THEN that that was the case, whereas the Bible speaks like of course everyone knows this. But it is a ton of little things like that. That is why I compared it to a mental disability. I actually don't know if it is the hearing, or that before __, I had no positive long term relationships. But as I have prayed, I don't understand some of the basics of how relationships work. And no matter what I do, I've never fully bridged that gap. I don't want to dump on you a bunch of examples to explain, so I hope it makes sense.
PPS: I am still really happy for other people, and do wish them well. So I have that going for me. I can walk by someone else's garden (I just have one plant right now) and be happy for that person instead of anger/envy. And it isn't like I don't really value the Bible and Bible study and other things God has given me.
Response #11:
As our Lord told us, "to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more" (Lk.12:48); correspondingly, those who have little are judged on the basis of the little they have, not the much others have.
And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. So He said, “Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had.”
Luke 21:1-4 NKJV
The point of this passage is exactly what you ask about. If a person has only twenty minutes of spare time in a day through no fault of their own (job, family, health obligations, etc.) and spends tens minutes praying, while another person has four or five hours and prays the same amount of time, all other things being equal (i.e., the "how" and the "what" we are praying for), the sacrifice of the first person is "more" than that of the second one. 
Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
2nd Timothy 4:8 NKJV
When it comes to evaluation, our Lord will be the Judge, and He is righteous – meaning in this context that His judgments are perfect and perfectly right. He knows all – and always has. We can rest assured that no one will be over-rewarded and no one under-rewarded. He will apply a perfect standard as only He could ever do. Everyone will "get what is coming to them", whether good or otherwise.
Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
1st Corinthians 3:12-15 NKJV
In terms of others appreciating us or desiring relationships with us, believers don't need to worry about that. Personal relationships are much desired by human beings but they are always problematic to some degree, especially when we are talking about either party being less than very spiritually mature. So as with marriage, it's a case of "be careful what you wish for".
But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.
1st Corinthians 7:28b NIV
Re: "I think the answer is to try to stay focused on Him". Amen! Focus on His truth and on facing the troubles of our lives with that truth – and helping others do the same through ministry. If that ministry is prayer, then we pray, or whatever it is we have been called / gifted to do.
We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.
Romans 12:6-8 NIV
I certainly "get" that others don't understand what you've been through or the obstacles that you face. 
Each heart knows its own bitterness, and no one else can share its joy.
Proverbs 14:10 NIV
But much more importantly, the Lord understands, absolutely and perfectly, and He is able to and will reward us according to what we can do, not according to what we can't.
The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. The righteous person may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all.
Psalm 34:18-19 NIV
Moses, whom you mention, is an excellent parallel: he did have limitations as well as advantages – but the Lord used him extensively because he was willing to be used, so his reward will be great.
If the ax is dull and its edge unsharpened, more strength is needed, but skill will bring success.
Ecclesiastes 10:10 NIV
Re: gardens. We has a councilman who used to say about flowers planted in gardens, "those are really for me", meaning, we ought to be planting for others to enjoy the blooms as much as we do for ourselves – that's the right attitude. So don't feel bad about having only one plant; wherever blooms are on display, they are just as beautiful for those who didn't labor over them as for those who did.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #12:
Hi Dr L,

I guess in my mind if I stand before Him and during the questioning He asks why I didn't love the brethren (in a sort of talking it out way), all I have is 'well, I mean, none of them wanted me, so all that was left was to pray for them here and there. I didn't know how to love, or how relationships work. I get the idea I shouldn't impose. And so all I could see is I am more like hermitish even with the brethren. And no one was willing to help me understand or learn. So I really don't know what else there was. Most of those verses about how we are to love seem to be for when you are wanted and accepted. Encouraging others, sharing, etc. 

And how many times I would hear all these people that did things they wanted most of the day, and still ended up spiritually mature and having done great spiritual things. And that was a very late thing for me, and I still didn't do it like them, it is still hard to do good things for myself. And it's like, if I am spending all this time reading the Bible, and praying about it, it sounds bad, I don't know what else, and yes I feel pathetic. But I just get to the point of, maybe they have the right of it. Maybe I missed out on maturation by not doing what they did...I don't know I can/should do, skipping grooming and even having likes and basic things...and I don't know. I really don't know..."

I mean, I don't know how that sounds, but I also don't know what else or how else to say it. Maybe it is just that. Try to live normally, read the Bible and Bible study, and pray. I really am at a loss because this is not me just now jumping into it. I am sorry if I sound bad. And I don't mean to upset you either. I do appreciate your always helping me and being patient. Anyway, please take care,
PS: I do think the widow one is really helpful, because she is on a plane like me in the sense that as far as the Bible relates, she may have had no possibility to relate in the brotherly love way directly. But He still approves because she did the good she could to the degree she understood. And so I do think that is more in my kind of level. 
PPS: It may not sound like it but I am doing well overall, so thanks for bearing with me.
Response #12:
We are all apprehensive about standing before the Lord on that day (or should be). That is the correct attitude because it helps to keep us motivated with proper respect for Him and what we are supposed to be doing down here.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. 
2nd Corinthians 5:10-11a
I wouldn't fret over potentially "not loving" other believers enough in the way you are describing. The golden rule is to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (Matt.7:12; Lk.6:31), which doesn't mean necessarily getting in their face to "love them" personally. It means in many cases giving them privacy and not getting upset with them. We are not mandated to socialize with other believers if we do not want to; we are mandated to love them – and often that means "from a safe distance" . . . especially if they are not mature (cf. 1Cor.5:9-13).

In terms of helping through ministry, lest we forget, you have been a great help to me and to this ministry not only through your prayers, encouragement, and fellowship, but also in your help with reftagger. We are rewarded at the Judgment Seat of Christ for spiritual growth, progress and production, and from where I sit, you have got all three going for you. So please don't despair because you don't see yourself as "perfect" when compared to some standard that you get from looking at others. It's not a good idea to do that sort of comparison for puffing oneself up (2Cor.10:12); and it's not advisable for knocking oneself down either (1Cor.4:3-4; Phil.3:12-13).
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.
1st Corinthians 4:5 NKJV
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #13:
Hi Dr L,

I really appreciate what you said. I am really glad to be able to help. 

The only thing is that I thought I remembered a lot of positive 'do' passages in the New Testament on what we are to do for others. Or is that more if we are already in a healthy relationship with them? I will look again because I may be remembering wrong.

This is a bit of jump but I was really happy to read about the Jewish (guy?) who came to the faith. I mean, it is that, but also even if he weren't, he seems like a really great person. 

I am sorry if this message is a bit disjointed, I am a bit tired lol.

Have a good week,
Response #13:
Yes, there are a lot of positive mandates in the NT in particular. But I can't think of anything that addresses the worries you shared with me. Happy to discuss any verses you wish.

I'm always thrilled to hear about individuals who turn to the Lord. I had a long correspondence with this fellow over several years, and then, about ten years ago or so, he dropped out of contact for no expressed reason and would not respond to messages such as announcements of new major postings. We'll have all these sorts of questions answered on the other side. And, I don't know about you, but I have a LOT of them. Meanwhile, we trust the Lord and endeavor to do so absolutely no matter what we hear or see or feel. 
For the LORD God is a sun and shield;
The LORD will give grace and glory;
No good thing will He withhold
From those who walk uprightly.
O LORD of hosts,
Blessed is the man who trusts in You!
Psalm 84:11-12 NKJV

Those who trust in the LORD are like Mount Zion, which cannot be shaken but endures forever.
Psalm 125:1b NIV
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #14:
I am sorry about that.

I was watching a video somewhere in the middle east (I think-I mean there was a desert and a camel and Arabic writing), and the scene is in this deserted place. There is one solitary road, a couple street signs, and then just dirt plains. And there is this poor camel that is just collapsed on the side of the road. And this driver gets out and gives the camel water. And it is just, there must be so many people that we'd love if only we knew them, you know? There's just so much in the way, time, language, culture, distance. We just have to do what we can in our lanes and follow Him and wait for Him to bring in Resurrection. 

Anyway when I get the change I will look over the NT for those verses. Please take care,
Response #14:
Re: "there must be so many people that we'd love if only we knew them". And the blessed thing is that in time soon to come, regardless of all these extraneous features you mention, we WILL know and love experientially so many other – brothers and sisters in Christ from the beginning to the end. That will be one of the wonderful things about eternity. We will not be alone but we will have a perfect relationship with everyone else in the Church forever and ever in a unity that defies present understanding – basking in the glory of our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Looking forward to that great day!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #15:
Greetings from the west coast brother Bob, just wanted to run a few things through your brilliant mind from a paper written by Roger D. Aus in regards to what he describes as “One of the most puzzling problems in the NT, even before the advent of modern critical study of the Bible, has been the interpretation of the phrases (Greek) in 2Thess 2:6-7.” My primary interest is not in who the restrainer is and Aus does not contradict your identity of the restrainer but what he proposes is that the mystery of lawlessness in 7a is the subject of what is “ketecho” in 7b in his article. I have gone back and read your amazing coverage of the “Restraining Ministry of the Holy Spirit” the most comprehensive coverage on this subject ever and am so encouraged by your in-depth analysis: 

https://www.ichthys.com/sr2-copy.htm#4.%20The%20Restraining%20Ministry%20of%20the%20Holy%20Spirit:

Just wondering if you care to address the aforementioned issue brought to my attention by Aus’s article.
Response #15:
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work – it is only the Restrainer [who keeps things in check, and will] until He moves out of the way. 
2nd Thessalonians 2:7
The second "he" above (in bold italics) is present in Greek only in the verb (as an ending – all Greek finite verbs have personal endings unlike English) and could, theoretically, be "it" (since there is no difference in the endings between "he/she/it"). However, since the last mentioned potential subject in the verse is not "the mystery of lawlessness" but "the One who restrains", it would be uncommonly confusing to take things the way Aus does or for a writer to expect readers to supply "the mystery of lawlessness" as the "it" without a pronoun or other indication that this is what is occurring and that the subject has changed. So just on the basis of the grammar of Greek, it's a very unlikely eventuality. To put it another way, reading this in Greek, you'd never be likely to make that connection – not if you really know Greek.

The proof in the pudding is what this would then have to mean as seen in fuller context:
(6) Even now you know what it is that restrains [antichrist's arrival] so that he will be revealed [only] in his own time. (7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work – [and] it is only the Restrainer [who keeps things in check, and will] until He moves out of the way. (8a) And then the lawless one will be revealed . . .
2nd Thessalonians 2:6-8a
If we understand "it", i.e., "the mystery of lawlessness" as what is going to be removed, then ipso facto removing "it" is what allows antichrist to be revealed. This makes little sense inasmuch as the Tribulation is a period of greater not less lawlessness as explained later in the chapter:
(8) And then the lawless one (i.e., antichrist) will be revealed, [that same one] whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and destroy when He appears at His [glorious] return – [that same lawless one] (9) whose appearance [will come about] through Satan's empowerment [and will be] accompanied by every [sort of] false miracle, both signs and portents, (10) and by every [sort of] unrighteous deception [designed] for those who are perishing, [namely those who will believe these lies] because they did not open themselves up to the love for the truth so as to be saved. (11) And for this [very] reason God is going to send upon them an empowerment of error so that they may believe the lie, (12) in order that they may be condemned, [even all those] who have not believed the truth but have [instead] approved of unrighteousness.
2nd Thessalonians 2:8-12
The fact is that antichrist is the lawless one so that removing lawlessness can scarcely be argued to be a key factor in allowing the beast to come on the scene.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #16:
Bob you are amazing, I just cannot say enough of how much I appreciate your keen insight and understanding in the Word of God and your invaluable contribution to the building up the body of Christ in truth. Thank you so much.

In Jesus 
Response #16:
It's my great pleasure – thanks much for the good words.

Please feel free to write any time.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #17:
Hello again Dr. Luginbill,

We are so glad that you are getting better.

I have a thought and a question and a deep concern.

My deep concern is that there are these so-called Pastor's/Teacher's that looks like they are doing something that is what I would call showmanship in there, in what they sometimes call the "Fire of the Holy Spirit", and everyone that is summed to got up in front is knocked down by what he claims to be the move of God. You would have to watch what he does and what happens when he touches people, or when he even goes near them, they start laughing, or get u[ in run around, or they fall over in their seats, etc. etc.

The person that is doing these things says that "it is the Holy Ghost", or "The fire of the Holy Ghost", etc., etc. He makes like he is the one that is doing these things, instead of God, for people are flocking to his meetings, he walks near individuals and they begin to laugh out loud, with falling out of their seat or being knocked to the floor. The entire audience is doing these things.

Here is my question:

In 1 Corinthians 13, verse 9, scripture mentions the phrase, "when the perfect is come". I remember from one your teachings that your opinion is that this perfect is already come, which is stated above. 

1. Do you believe that the gifts of 1 Corinthian 12 and 14 are still in effect, for according to your opinion they are no longer in effect.

2. So, what is happening at these so called meetings I specify above?

3. in Verse stated in 1 Corinthians verse 10, "when the perfect is come"; could it not be referencing the Second Coming, for Jesus is the perfect One? After all, He is the Perfect One, and also in addition, The Word of God.

I am greatly wondering about these gifts, at least, that is what is being displayed as the gifts of the Holy Spirit? Please set me straight on these problems and those being touted by many different so-called Ministers of God, and the move of The Holy Spirit.

Thanks much my friend

Blessings to you much.

Your friends, 
Response #17:
In our late Laodicean era, the questionable and even outrageous activities that are taking place widely in the church-visible are many and manifold. You touch on a few here which are part and parcel of the whole "new age" infiltration of the churches of many persuasions. Here is a link to where a number of these abuses are listed and briefly described: in Hebrews chapter 10: "Egregious Trends in Local Churches".
No doubt the devil is providing the main impetus. What most of these types of activities have in common is that immature believers – who are not seriously interested in fulfilling Christ's mandate to grow spiritually, progress in the Christian walk and then produce a crop for Him – are flocking to "fun" venues. That "fun" comes in many forms which have in common a complete absence any redeeming virtue on the one hand, and often also a heavy dollop (at least) of spiritual danger on the other. 

Things have to be done the Lord's way. We cannot take things into our own hands and do them our way instead, not without hazarding everything. The Gnostics also preached involvement with unseen spiritual forces and all manner of dangerous behaviors. So-called "pastors" who involve themselves in leading sheep astray in the way you mention should remember James 3:1 about the "stricter judgment" teachers will receive. But as Paul says, "Are they servants of Christ? I am out of my mind to talk like this!" (2Cor.11:23 NIV). E.g., who ever heard of uncontrollable laughter or getting knocked down . . . in the Bible? But it is a common thing in pagan religions.

1. "The perfect" in 1st Corinthians 13:9 is also from Greek, "the completed thing", and this is referring to the completed Bible. Before the Bible was completed, in the early years of the Church Age, believers needed all the truth that the New Testament would later provide. God thus provided special spiritual gifts to bridge the gap between the completed canon and those early days. Paul, e.g., couldn't be everywhere. Without a New Testament, how could believers learn if they didn't have an apostle present to teach them Church Age truth? This is where prophecy came in along with all the other temporary spiritual gifts, the very ones which in this chapter Paul says will be done away with just as soon as the Bible is completed. So in his day there the gifts of prophecy, tongues, knowledge, were being imparted by the Spirit, to give partial information (1Cor.13:9); "but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears" (1Cor.13:10). I have written rather a lot about this subject. Here are some of the main links:
That which is perfect.
What does "the perfect" mean?
"The perfect" vs. the partial.
Temporary Spiritual Gifts (in BB 5)
The Perfection of the Bible (in BB 7)
2. Re: "what is happening at these so called meetings": Nothing good. Nothing to do with God. Lots to do with the evil one.

3. Re: "could it not be referencing the Second Coming". That is a standard interpretation, but if that were the case then we would still need . . . and still have . . . the temporary gifts. But we don't need them since we have the whole Bible. And what a wonderful gift it is! But how little contemporary Christians seem to think of it, given their running after all manner of entertainment, musical distractions, weird behaviors, and charlatans instead of Bible teachers – anything but paying serious attention to the Word of God. 

Any sane person knows that there is no longer a gift of tongues, or a gift of knowledge, or a gift of prophecy. If there were tongues, people could speak a language they never learned. That no longer happens. If there were prophecy, people could tell us what was going to transpire in the future. That no longer happens. If there were knowledge (as a gift), people would know doctrine in deep detail without ever studying scripture. That no longer happens. 

Make no mistake, there are plenty out there who CLAIM such things – just as they claim exorcisms and all other manner of dangerous "spiritual warfare" things are happening. But they are not – as any reasonable Christian can plainly see.

Please do feel free to write me back about any of the above, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #18:
Hello Bob! 

Thank you for the response, as well as the email postings. 

I apologize for your once-upon-a-time rodent battle referenced in the email postings. There are few things that’ll ruffle my feathers like signs of mice in a thoroughly cleaned kitchen. I’ve thought about conscripting a small army of outdoor cats before, but the urgency is gone [for now] 

The postings for this weekend were just what the doctor ordered! I felt a sense of camaraderie and belonging despite not truly knowing anyone; this shouldn't be surprising to me, though, if these are devoted maturing believers. 

The struggling goes in waves, but back in the saddle - so to speak.

The testing and trials have continued to be intense these days. I want to be grateful for that training and refining; I certainly need more of it, and don’t want to be a pauper in terms of potential rewards in Eternity. 

I’m grateful I’m learning to focus on the eternal and unseen in circumstances; my life could be filled with many dumpster fires, and that can be completely ok. Am I growing in faith in the Lord? Am I bearing a sound witness? Am I studying the Word? Can I be more disciplined in my spiritual growth? Am I becoming more like Jesus? If those matters need improvement, and they will until I die or the Lord returns, that should be the focus. Fixing XYZ earthly present situation may be a part of that, of course, but I don’t need to live life like a chess match. I can seek the Lord, love Him, obey Him and grow in His truth and the rest will sort out….and if it doesn’t, I can trust the Lord’s perfect sovereignty and plan. 

Have a wonderful weekend! Hopefully, the mouse troupe is gone. 
Response #18:
Thanks so much for the edifying email, my friend! This is exactly the perspective we should all have – and your experience and the way you relate it certainly speaks to me and I know it will to others too.

Re: "I don’t need to live life like a chess match". Amen! We try to do the best we can, but we often don't see at the time what "the best move is", even when we are making our decisions in a godly way. But God is the One who "works it all out together for the good". He has already given us victory in the victory of Jesus Christ. As long as we stay faithful, we have nothing to worry about and can just take whatever comes in faith and confidence of deliverance in the end.
In all this we are decisively victorious through Him who loved us.
Romans 8:37

(54) And when this corruptible [body] puts on incorruption and this mortal [body] puts on immortality, then will be fulfilled this prophecy which has been written: "Death has been swallowed up in victory (Is.25:8). (55) Where is your victory, O death? Where is your stinger, O death (Hos.13:14)?" (56) Now the stinger of death is the sin [nature] (i.e., it produces our sin), and the power of sin is the Law (i.e., it reveals our sin). (57) But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
1st Corinthians 15:54-57

For everyone who has been born from God overcomes the [devil's] world. And this is the victory that has overcome the [devil's] world: our faith [in Jesus Christ]! For who is the one who overcomes the [devil's] world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
1st John 5:4-5
In Jesus,

Bob L.
http://ichthys.com/