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Eschatology Issues CLXIV

Question #1:
Good morning Bob,

How are you? I am well and keeping busy as usual.

I have a question for you. I cannot find the scripture where the Lord tells one of his prophets (I think) in the Old Testament that he wants to show him the secret room where the Baal worshipers meet in secret in the Temple of Solomon. Do you know where it is?

Many thanks,

Best regards,
Response #1:
Good to hear from you. I have been keeping you and your youngest son in particular in my prayers.

You may be conflating two passages here. In Ezekiel chapter 8 we find our Lord decrying the idolatry at His temple, and in verses 7-11 in particular we may have what you are referring to:
Then he brought me to the entrance to the court. I looked, and I saw a hole in the wall. He said to me, "Son of man, now dig into the wall." So I dug into the wall and saw a doorway there. And he said to me, "Go in and see the wicked and detestable things they are doing here." So I went in and looked, and I saw portrayed all over the walls all kinds of crawling things and unclean animals and all the idols of the house of Israel. In front of them stood seventy elders of the house of Israel, and Jaazaniah son of Shaphan was standing among them. Each had a censer in his hand, and a fragrant cloud of incense was rising.
Ezekiel 8:7-11 TNIV
There is no mention of Baal here, however. We do find something similar in regard to Baal, not in the temple of Solomon but in the pagan temple of Samaria on the occasion of Jehu's destruction of the priests of Baal in 2nd Kings 10:21-28:
And Jehu sent through all Israel: and all the worshippers of Baal came, so that there was not a man left that came not. And they came into the house of Baal; and the house of Baal was full from one end to another. And he said unto him that was over the vestry, Bring forth vestments for all the worshippers of Baal. And he brought them forth vestments. And Jehu went, and Jehonadab the son of Rechab, into the house of Baal, and said unto the worshippers of Baal, Search, and look that there be here with you none of the servants of the LORD, but the worshippers of Baal only. And when they went in to offer sacrifices and burnt offerings, Jehu appointed fourscore men without, and said, If any of the men whom I have brought into your hands escape, he that letteth him go, his life shall be for the life of him. And it came to pass, as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, that Jehu said to the guard and to the captains, Go in, and slay them; let none come forth. And they smote them with the edge of the sword; and the guard and the captains cast them out, and went to the city of the house of Baal. And they brought forth the images out of the house of Baal, and burned them. And they brake down the image of Baal, and brake down the house of Baal, and made it a draught house unto this day. Thus Jehu destroyed Baal out of Israel.
2nd Kings10:21-28 KJV
Please do let me no if neither of these passages are what you had in mind, and I will do my level best to help you find what you are looking for.

Incidentally, Biblica, the official site of the International Bible Society (see the link) has a wonderful search engine for finding such things in all manner of Bible versions. You can find this and other such handy sites on my links pages: Bible Study Links.

In our dear Lord Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #2:
Hello Robert,

Thank you so much for praying for us. Much has happened since we last spoke, and it is all good, although quite painful. My youngest about two months ago he had a big bust up with his older brother. They had been working together but my oldest is a wild child. He was trying to control his younger brother, to make use of him and also to lead him down the party road. I wept and prayed for two years and finally the bust-up happened.

He has been living on his own and I told him he could only come home as a last resort. The result is that he is finding himself! The real him: the great guy, the lazy guy, the hiding guy, the game player out of fear guy, and, as always, looking into the mirror is doing its job. I have hope for the first time in a long time. Thank you for being willing to share that burden with me. My family are staunch Roman Catholics who have totally disowned me because I left the Roman Catholic Church. My parents are dead and my mother's relatives, who I have never met, live somewhere in Scotland! I became born-again in 1986, and, together with __, we are the only ones in the whole family, on both sides! Well may the apostle Paul call us wretched sometimes, we have so much misery as Christians. How amazing that joy still manages to break through that heavy blanket of persecution!

As usual, you have come through for me. Ezekiel chapter 8 is exactly what I was looking for. I think I told you that I am half-French and half-Scottish. After reading the Bible from cover to cover in English twice I am now reading it in French so as to have the French Scriptures in my memory bank. I am reading Chronicles which is why I had not remembered Ezekiel.

Thank you so much. May the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit all bless you and your family in recognition of your love and compassion for your fellow humans and their children.

With kindest regards,
Response #2:
Thank you so much for sharing your encouraging words. I am very pleased to hear that your youngest is being delivered and led to better things. Believe me when I say that I understand the pain of heart that comes when those we are close to are in spiritual (or other) trouble. It is certainly the case that we true Christians who are dedicated to following Jesus only get through this life "with tribulations" (Acts 14:22), and yet Jesus promised us peace (Jn.14:27), and James promised us joy (Jas.1:2) – in spite of everything the evil one throws at us.
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness.
Colossians 1:11 KJV
I am in the process of writing the section of CT #6 [n.b., now posted at the link] which deals with our judgment before the throne of Jesus Christ, and the prospect of all the wonderful rewards that fall to the lot of those who not only believe, but also advance, and who endure testing/tribulation and produce a crop for the Lord is absolutely exhilarating. These troubles will be over in the blink of an eye, but everything we do for Jesus lasts forever. When we receive our "well done" from Him and rewards that exceed anything we can now imagine to infinity, we will know for sure that all this was worthwhile, despite the tears that presently block our view.
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Revelation 7:17 KJV

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:4 KJV
Thank you for the update and thank you for all your kind words.

Keep fighting that good fight of faith in Jesus Christ!

Bob L.
Question #3:
Dear Bob,

You're very welcome. Please let me know when I can download the section of CT #6 which deals with our judgment before the throne of the Lord Jesus. I have never studied that and I am sure it would be a balm to my heart. I used to cry all the time (my parents were divorced and so am I! - a double whamy some would call it). I don't do that so much any more, at least not over myself, just over the boys, but I am sure my heart needs healing and I think the above would probably do the trick. I am a very practical soul, as you have probably guessed by now!

Keep me posted, please.

Thank you once again, and with my very best wishes,
Response #3:
Well, it will be quite some time before I finish the quite extensive whole of CT 6 (maybe as much as a year [n.b., now posted at the link). However, I would be happy to send you by e-mail the section in question once it is complete (remind me if you haven't heard from me on this after about a month or so). 

Incidentally, I maintain an e-mail notification list to alert interested readers of major new postings. I only send out such e-mail when I finish a major study (like CT 6), so it only generates a couple of e-mails per year at the very most. I would be most happy to include you if you would like.

In the meantime, here are some links where some of this information is already available:
Eternal Rewards

Production is Rewarded (including the doctrine of Crowns)

[and the current link in CT 6]
Yours in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Bob L.
Question #4:
Is the peace treaty of Daniel 9 :27 the beginning of the tribulation?
Response #4:
Greetings in Jesus Christ,

Yes, you are essentially correct. The beast makes a seven year peace treaty with the state of Israel in the first half of the tribulation (though not at its very beginning – he first must rise to power during the Tribulation's first half), then later abrogates the treaty "in the middle of the week" (i.e., at the middle point of the seven years of the Tribulation, not of the treaty's term). Part 3B of Coming Tribulation will outline the rise of the beast and his kingdom in some detail. I hope to have this study completed and posted by fall at the latest [now posted at the link]. Part 3A of Coming Tribulation outlines the biblical signs that the Tribulation proper has begun. See especially section I.5, "The Thunderous Voices, Lightning, and Earthquake" (link): Those who are paying attention to scripture will have ample warning of the Tribulation's inception, even before the beast himself is obviously manifest through his political activities.

Hope this is of some help to you,

Yours in Jesus Christ,

Bob L.
Question #5:
Greetings, appreciate your insight, thanks in advance.
Response #5:
Dear Friend,

I am now back in my office after a few days off and have been thinking about your question. It is really a most insightful observation. Anyway, I have done some additional research on your question. Clearly, if the treaty is "for one week" with the abrogation coming in the "middle" of that week (which point we know from many other scriptures must form the mid-point of those seven years and the inception of the Great Tribulation or second half of the Tribulation), then the it would seem that beast's rise to power over his empire would have to occur prior to the Tribulation. That is a problem because numerous scriptures connect his rise to the Tribulation itself (cf. 2Thes.2:3 and Rev.13:1 for example). 

The solution to this apparent contradiction lies in the Hebrew text of Daniel. Verse twenty-seven comes in the context of the prophecy of the 70 weeks, and that is important. Prior to this verse, we are told of "seventy weeks" and then "sixty two and seven weeks". Contrary to how it is usually translated and interpreted, therefore, this "one week" must be the last week of the seventy, namely, the Tribulation. What this means is that antichrist's treaty is not seven weeks long, but is made during the last week, namely, during the Tribulation, and is abrogated in the middle of that week (a point which squares with other prophecy). The Hebrew word echadh, "one", is often used in series of ordinal numbers even though it is a cardinal number. The most famous example of this is in the seven Genesis days where the first day is, literally, "day one", although the second, third, etc. are truly "second day", "third day", etc. Since this series of sorts in Daniel goes backward (NOT REALLY, but the “one” is definitely the final brick in the wall that completes the sequence, so “one REMAINING week” is closer to the mark), counting down to the last week, echadh can bear the meaning "last week" or "one [remaining] week". 

So the key to this putative problem is that the "week" is the Tribulation, not some length of time for a peace treaty. And it would be odd, after all, if antichrist and Israel were to limit their treaty at all, especially to such a short specified time.  Here is my expanded translation of the passage:
Then he (i.e., antichrist) will confirm an agreement (or "covenant"; Hebrew, ברית, beriyth) with the powerful [in Israel] during [that] one [remaining] week (i.e., the 70th week, the Tribulation), but in the middle of the week (i.e., just prior to the Tribulation's mid-point) he will put a halt to sacrifice and offering (i.e., eliminating Moses and Elijah and interrupting the temple rites). And on account of the extreme [nature] of [his] abominations, he [will] be causing desolations (i.e., desertion and estrangement from God), even until the end when what has been determined will be poured out upon the one characterized by [this] desolation (i.e., the beast as archetype and cause of the alienation and rebellion from God which he fosters).
Daniel 9:27
I really appreciate your question. It has helped me to clarify an important point of interpretation in my own my mind.

Thanks again and my apologies for not seeing all the implications of your question on first take.

In our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Bob L.
Question #6:
[omitted]
Response #6:
I know that many Christians nowadays do this sort of thing. The Messianic movement in various iterations is growing more and more powerful day by day (link). There are a lot of problems with this false approach because it tends to denigrate Jesus Christ by subtly or directly (depending on the group) denying His deity.

In terms of the seder itself which you are considering attending, I'm pretty sure that it won't involve slaughtering a lamb and pouring out its blood on the altar (which no longer exists), so the particular sins of the congregation in Jerusalem Paul wrote about in Hebrews are not repeatable. However, there is nothing in the New Testament which suggests that we need to do such things – quite the opposite (Gal.4:10; Col.2:16; [and, n.b., link now to Hebrews]. Of course, there's nothing in the New Testament suggesting that we should celebrate "Easter" either – which is just a Christianized Passover itself, after all (it's traditional to eat lamb in many places). 

For me personally, it would depend upon who was conducting it and what was involved. There are pretty specific rules for a traditional Jewish seder, although these have developed over the centuries and differ based upon the specific tradition (Ashkenazic, Sephardic, Mizrahi, Persian, etc., with Reform and Conservative groups having various abbreviations to the traditional ceremonies).

Recital of the Haggadah, "The Telling" is required in some versions and I couldn't recommend this (anymore than I could recommend many hymns). There are some true things and a lot one would have to willfully disregard. It is based on a mind-set of rejecting the cross, after all.

So there are seders and there are seders, ranging from various Orthodox Jewish rituals which follow tradition to watered down "Christian" seders where people play at being Jewish. Since Christ was never understood by the people who developed these traditions, I would be at a loss to see the value for a believer unless the ritual was transformed into an explanation of how Christ fulfilled the actual (not later traditional) elements of the Passover.
Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1st Corinthians 5:7-8 NKJV
As long as nothing directly derogatory to our Lord is done or said, it's probably analogous to going to church . . . where nothing directly derogatory to our Lord is done or said, but where one is left with a queasy feeling because of the lack of truth and, in many instances, the (often unwitting) mis-speaking of the truth.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #7:
[omitted]
Response #7:
I'm pretty sure the world won't end if you go. Also, I doubt if this has much to do with actual Jewish seders. And to reiterate, actual Jewish seders today are not the same thing as legitimate Passover celebrations before the cross.

Keeping you in prayer, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #8:
Hi Bob,

First, I apologize for all the sophomoric questions I have asked previously. In reading BB (I'm only about 2/3 into it) you have answered many of them. Thank you for your patience.

I also owe you an apology for my earlier suppositions. I had assumed your assessment of the tribulation was a little exaggerated. After watching the degradation of the past several months and BB 2B: Eschatology (link), I'm beginning to wonder if maybe you haven't understated the trouble to come. Even the headlines, which I'm beginning to take with a grain of salt, report murders all over the country daily. The hatred out there is incredible -- and we still have a year to go.

I'm truly thankful my time is short. I look forward to the day when this nonsense is over.

Stay well and safe.

In our Lord,
Response #8:
No apology necessary, my friend! I appreciate you love for the Word.

Re: "I'm truly thankful my time is short." Well, we never know about that, one way or another. Moses was around 80 when he saw the burning bush. He probably thought he was almost done too – but for him the "fun" was just about to begin.

Re: "I look forward to the day when this nonsense is over." As do we all! Our Lord's millennial administration will be perfect in every way – and we will be part of it. Glorious days ahead, no matter what happens in the meantime.

Keeping you in my prayers (thanks much for yours).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #9:
Dear Robert,

It is long overdue to say Hello!

I trust that you are doing well. Serving the Lord has been my love, my obedience does not complete the work on the Cross, but shows it power.

My question:

Israel's failure and the new commission given to a people or if you like "one new man" / Church to bring glory to God and be a light to nations. Thus a new term:

Vocational Transfer Theology - Explanation:
As a doctrine it follows on Israel's failure to glorify God (their rejection of Christ) and serve as a light to the nations (failure to represent the Gospel), the divine vocation was transferred to the "one new man" - the unified body of believers in Christ - who now bear fruit fulfilling Israel's original call, until Israel's restoration.

Hope this will find you well.

In Christ,
Response #9:
Hope you're doing well.

I'm not wild about describing things as a "transfer" inasmuch as it sounds a lot like "replacement theology", a dangerous heresy. Such terminology might lead some to think in those wrong-headed terms. The Church is indeed now God's instrument for spreading the truth, but the Church is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets" – all of whom are Jewish as is our Lord (Eph.2:20). The Church is composed of Jews and gentiles with all of us being one in Jesus Christ.

See the link: Israel: God's Perfect Standard (in SR 5)

In Him,

Bob L.
Question #10:
Hi Bob,

After reading your 11/1 post, it appears many still pay attention to the news. Given the widespread rise of AI that now generates news, movies, porn, photos and who knows what else, it doesn't look to me like there's much of anything in the media/news that can be trusted. Yet, people believe it. Since we accept lying news and pictures, do you suppose that the AI craze is preparing us to accept lying signs and wonders?

Also, on page 207 of BB 2B, I read "[insert chart: The Winepress of Armageddon]".

Thanks for all your work. I pray all is well up there in L'ville and the University is treating you well.

In our Lord,
Response #10:
People are already way too confident about the truth of what they find on the internet. AI is an infant as yet, even though it's a prodigy. I asked ChatGPT to find me the ghost story in Pliny as a last minute plum for one of my Latin classes on Friday. It gave me an English translation and then the Latin . . . but it turned out that the Latin was not Pliny's Latin but a translation of the English it had found back-translated into Latin! That is a mistake only a machine could make – and it is typical of the sorts of errors AI makes. It's a valuable tool but it only has value when someone with skepticism, good judgment and a great deal of knowledge about the subject in question uses it carefully. Anyone who relies on it to be "right" about anything without checking is going to be sorry.

Thanks for the catch. Image inserted and new version uploaded.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #11:
Hi Bob,

You have far more faith in software and the technologists than me. I worked with them too many years to have faith in anything they do. In almost 35 years, I've met two programmers and one DBA that I trusted. AI only knows what people feed it, and I guess, I don't trust those people, either.

In our Lord,
Response #11:
You're the exemplar of that part of the saying: "You can't fool all of the people all of the time."

Or as our Lord warned us, 
"Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves."
Matthew 10:16 NKJV
Hope you're doing well, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #12:
Hi Dr L,

In the Hebrews study you mention Melchizedek helped Abraham prepare for the test of the king of Sodom offering to let Abraham keep the spoil. But I don't understand why it would be wrong for Abraham to accept the spoil. Because all believers 'get' things from nonbelievers via which I suppose any nonbeliever could claim to have made them rich. Like I suppose the Ancient Egyptians could have claimed to have made the Israelites rich, when the Israelites asked for clothes and gold and such before leaving Egypt. What am I missing?

The only thing I can think of is that it is unique to Abraham-as in Abraham has a specific role that might have been compromised? I also just asked AI after writing that last line and it thinks that it is because of the covenantal promise given to Abraham in the special way of God promising to bless Abraham. Whereas for us, of course good things come from God, but Abraham was specifically given this verbal covenantal promise like that, so that it was important to make it as clear as possible to everyone. Is it like that?

Thanks for your help,
PS: I know it is Saturday, no rush!
Response #12:
What you say is very true. I think the main answer is what Abraham himself says to the king of Sodom:
But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “With raised hand I have sworn an oath to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the strap of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, ‘I made Abram rich.’ "
Genesis 14:22-23 NIV
So the refusal had to do with making clear just who was responsible for the victory and Abraham's blessings, namely, the Lord, and for that reason Abraham did not want to allow the king of Sodom any occasion for boasting that would detract from the Lord's glory.

I hear you about AI. It's a wonderful tool but it makes many mistakes. Just like we would closely question an assistant (if we had one) about anything important they were given to do and find out if what they were telling us was accurate (and use judgment as to what degree of confidence we would put into their findings), that goes double for any AI. After all, it's just doing a better job of scouring the internet than Google alone would do, and deciding on the basis of probability et al. which information it finds is more likely to be correct according to its algorithms. We can let AI do a lot of "donkey work", but we can never risk ceding our judgment to it.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #13:
Hi Bob,

I have to thank you again. It may or may not have been your intention, but having nearly finished BB 2B: Eschatology, you have taught me that I've been reading the Bible incorrectly all these years. I have read it mostly as a narrative, a chronological history which is not correct. This time, as I read the Bible from beginning to end I was struck by how much applies to today but now, reading BB, I see the Bible is much more tightly interwoven than I ever expected. No human writer could have accomplished this. Many passages you cite, some of which I remembered, you tie to end times like I never understood before. As I continue my daily Bible reading, you have brought a new focus to my study. Thanks.

This week's e-mail posting (11/15/25) has shown me that there are still many people who see what I've been seeing. Which is reassuring. Sometimes I wonder if the Tribulation isn't scheduled for next Thursday. I too am concerned with the alarming trend of ID and government intrusion though few others seem to be. From what you've written about the Romans, our kabuki-esque government is little different though the floggings and persecutions have changed nature a bit.

I also should note that this week's scan-by headlines reported that many mainline churches have joined the ranks. Episcopalian, Presbyterian and Unitarian seem to be leading the charge.

Otherwise, all is well here. I pray your U of L issues have beneficially resolved. This weeks posting sounded fairly recent. I pray also you are doing reasonably well. Your comments about doctors and drugs sounded like you're getting in deeper. I too have high BP and have resolved to use the medicines the Lord has provided instead of pharmaceuticals which I no longer trust. As you may have guessed, I don't trust doctors, either, though I've found a couple decent ones. I pray you have, too.

In our Lord,
Response #13:
Thanks for this, my friend. 

I've put in the charts and uploaded new versions. I also discovered that I had the wrong one in one place and have fixed that too. Have a look – I appreciate you catching these.

In terms of the job and the dean's proposal to remove the language requirement for B.S. students, she had a "town hall" last Friday and was loaded for bear. We barely had a chance to respond. The actual vote won't occur until next Friday. All full time faculty are eligible to vote. If memory serves, that's around 400+ individuals all told. We never have but about half that many at the assemblies, so it'll probably be whoever "gets out the vote" that'll win. Thanks for the prayers! [update: the proposal was widely unpopular and has been dropped; thanks much to all who prayed on my behalf!]

Re: "No human writer could have accomplished this." Indeed. To paraphrase L.S. Chafer, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary and my mentor's mentor, "The Bible is a book no human being could write if they would nor would if they could".

Things are indeed getting "interesting" in the world. But as dysfunctional as they are, knowing what I know about the events that will be taking place right after the Tribulation begins, I tend in the opposite direction, that is, wondering how we will get to a likely place possibly as soon as next year. The slope is getting ever slipperier but from where I sit there does seem to be a lot of slope left. We'll see. As I've often remarked, once the Tribulation does begin, with the Holy Spirit's restraining ministry in abeyance, things will happen unprecedentedly fast.

I hear you on the docs. There are a number of other things they want me to do that I'm not doing, but generally lately I've been attempting to "follow doctors orders" (in full disclosure).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #14:
Hello Dr. Luginbill,

__ has been having headaches for quite some time, so our Doctor ordered an MRI and I am asking for prayers for her that they is not something radially wrong with her head, but that it may be very minor. 

Secondly, I have been preparing a paper on Matthew chapter 10 and I have some questions. First I want to address Matthew 10 verse 1. In this verse Jesus is sending those who were His disciples which were 12. They were given power to cast out unclean spirits, to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness. In Verse 7 thru 8 the disciples were told to preach about the Kingdom of heaven, Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons.

My question is: it seems to me that from verse 1 to verse 23, does not apply to those who live currently and are disciples of Christ? According to some of your teachings it seems to me that these gifts given to the 12 disciples were not passed on to current Christians?

Like "raising the dead, coast out demons, etc. I agree with your teachings about these particular gifts. These gifts and spiritual capabilities of the current disciples are no longer the same as the twelve apostles/disciples. Am I correct in my thinking?

Thanks so much, as always.

Many blessings to you.

Your friends,
Response #14:
I'm praying for __ – please let me know how it goes (I understand that medicos are very slow about giving results of tests often).

On the sending out of the 12, yes, these commands are given to Jesus' special emissaries, namely, His 12 and also His 72. As such, they are the precursors of the 144,000 of the Tribulation who will likewise have these special (and at present not operative) gifts such as the ones you mention (here's a link on that: in BB 5: "Temporary Gifts"). 

Best place for reading up on the 12/72 is in CT 2B: "The Sealing of the 144,000" (at the link).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #15:
Hello Dr Bob from northern michigan! 

Do you anticipate the timing of the trio of worldwide thunder, lightning, and the earthquake to be at the beginning of the Tribulation in the fall or 6 months before that around the spring feasts? 

I think about how our gracious God will provide a very clear indication like that in his goodness. 

I continue to learn and read so much from your writings that illuminate so much of the Bible. So thank you, again. 
Response #15:
I take this initial signal to occur at the commencement of the Tribulation in the fall of the year of it starts based on the following;
When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.
Revelation 8:1-5 NIV
The opening of the seventh seal marks the commencement of the seven year period that precedes the "revelation of Jesus Christ" – which is the subject of the very book which has been sealed. But we see that there is "silence" for half an hour after that before these unmistakable signs of the beginning of the Tribulation are given. I take this as six months, a half a year, since it's definitely "half" of some important period of time and since the Tribulation is measured in months 42/42 and years (see link #1 and link #2).

Thanks for the encouraging words!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #16:
[omitted]
Response #16:
It's true. The more things change, the more they seem to stay the same. I don't think it's necessarily "us" to blame for this either. We receive the testing we need for whatever reason. We should just be grateful it's not worse than it could be – and be grateful to the Lord for all the good things He's given us and for all the deliverances He's wrought for us (as I know very well you are).

In terms of the people we care about, I've often wished there were some little switch we could just flip to turn them around. But of course the whole point of us being here on the earth is to make choices, and we all have to make our own and live with them. Plato had the sick idea that it was only a question of knowledge. If people "really knew" what was good from them and what was bad, they would choose the former and reject the latter. Obviously, Plato never went to any bar on a Saturday night. And we also note that he ended up in perdition despite his genius.

Even mature believers make "mistakes" which are often made out of cognizance rather than ignorance. Eve may have been deceived, but she wanted what the tree of knowledge seemed to promise. Adam was under no illusions whatsoever but did what he wanted to do, namely, join Eve rather than be deprived of her, in spite of "knowing". Welcome to the human race ever since. 

So we who believe in Jesus Christ humbly confess our sins and attempt to follow His mandates, ever grateful that He has already died for every sinful thing we've ever thought or said or done.
He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8 NIV
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #17:
Hi Mr. Luginbill,

This question is my own. I was having a discussion with my family and grandparents the other evening and we were discussing involvement in politics. I tend to be an all or nothing person. I know where I am spiritually comfortable on the issue, but I'm not sure if I need to rethink my position or if this is up to personal application.

If I am understanding correctly, Ichthys teaches that involvement in politics is often spiritually dangerous and often leads to attempts to "fix" the world (which is in the devil's control). Also, as ruler of this world, Satan is on "both sides" of politics and using it all for his systems.

My grandpa fought in the Vietnam war. I have never seen war. My grandparents see the country going downhill (which I don't think most Christians would argue that it isn't), and while I can't speak for them, they seem to think that even though God is the answer and we shouldn't put our hope in politics, that we should try to "slow" the evil.

I am thankful that I have some freedom right now in America (I don't think that is wrong - is it?). I know that there were many people who fought and died for the freedom we have. I don't want to disrespect them (I know that you served too and I never want to disrespect you). I just want to make sure my spiritual priorities are correct.

So my question is...do we involve ourselves in politics in hopes to "preserve some of our freedom"? In America, we currently have freedom to worship God and read the Bible and we can do that pretty safely, and many Christians around the world don't have that.

Does God lead Christians into government for the purpose of slowing evil? Is high involvement in politics ever Christian or simply a Christian misguided? We can't know all the callings God has for people, I'm just a little confused. I know God's purpose for us all is to know Jesus and grow spiritually and work on our ministries. My step-grandma asked me if I thought that God was guiding the Christians in politics and I was like, "I don't know....". I don't know what I'm supposed to think about that. I think I remember you telling me that to vote was not a sin.

Is local politics different than national politics? Can we vote for someone we want on the city council that would probably make less bad decisions for our community than someone else? What about the cases where it feels like you're voting for the "lesser of two evils"? Do you vote for the one "less" bad one or just say, "God will take care of it all" and move on?

And we're supposed to be salt and light and that we preserve our country that way, right? So if Christians grew spiritually - like, GREW spiritually - would that do more than if we all went to vote?

There's also the consideration that in the Millennium, Jesus will rule as the perfect Ruler in the perfect government...and most people will still turn away from God. Which seems to say that people do what people want, regardless of good or bad government.

I've been in the mindset of "don't think about politics, don't talk about politics, don't listen to the news, don't get all worried, just grow spiritually".

Since the antichrist is going to come to power then I think that I personally don't want to vote or involve myself in politics at all, since I don't want any part of that. If I involve myself in politics and it's all going towards that end, then why would I ever vote or do anything in politics?

I came down a little hard on the "don't involve ourselves in politics" side and I don't know if I had it right or not. Just a little unsure of it all. I love my grandparents and I know that I tend to have an intense personality (most especially if I believe something strongly).

Respectfully,
Response #17:
You are right. It's not a sin to vote. It's also not necessarily a sin to run for dog-catcher, if, for example, wild dogs are terrorizing one's community and no one else is doing anything about it. But even in such a case it is wise to consider that going down that path is likely to consume a great deal of one's personal time and energy without having any particular spiritual benefit.

So this is a matter of application. I don't think that there is a biblical mandate to tell believers to stay away from politics as in "it's sinful". But I do think that it is the part of spiritual common sense to realize that this has been a deadly trap for many believers while never doing any believer any spiritual good. If a believer can keep it straight in their heart that God is the One in control, that they are not going to be able to do anything to "fix things", that only He can do that, then perhaps said person can avoid the worst pitfalls. But it does beg the question of "why then devote yourself to it?" 

As a pastor-teacher, therefore, it's my duty to let those listening to this ministry know what a dangerous thing it is to become enamored of and engaged in political action especially to a great degree. To use an analogy, I wouldn't want to say that it's a deadly sin to stop by the casino on the way home and spend half an hour playing the slots. Maybe the person might win some money to help with the bills. Far more likely, however, is losing more than one can afford, and many is the person who has ruined his/her entire life by falling into this trap. That is pretty much the way I feel about politics as well. Even when "the cause is good", it's very difficult to engage without falling into crusader behavior and the crusader mind-set . . . and there are always unintended negative consequences. Who has ever engaged in politics and not compromised? No one who has ever won anything.

We all have to make our own decisions and applications in the life. I would never want to judge someone else' application on this issue since we don't all see it the same way. But there are certain things which are very dangerous in this life. When it comes to such things, believers need to enter in with their eyes wide open and with no illusions – if they dare to enter in at all.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #18:
Hi Mr. Luginbill,

I think I understand what you are saying here - thank you. This has helped me better understand how to look at politics. I do still have some questions on how this works in life.

1). There are those who say that we should attempt to "hold evil" back where we can through voting, etc. Is this even possible?

I know that the plan of God will happen at just the right time, but we choose with our free-will whether to vote or not. How does this fit together? How much do we actually influence the outcome?

2). Is it more spiritually dangerous (given where we are on the human history clock) to get involved in politics now then it was, say, 200 years ago? Does this change with time period or placement in the world or any manner of variables?

I hope you are well!

Respectfully,
P.S. I noticed in response #3 of the email postings this past Saturday that you mentioned a vote on language requirements. I hope that went well and did not cause difficulty for you and your work?
Response #18:
Thanks for asking. The vote was postponed until at least Dec. 5 and it's looking now as if the dean might drop her push and instead back a proposal just to carve out the General Studies program (a special degree for returning students). That would be OK with us. I'll try to remember to let you know how it goes (feel free to ask if I forget) [update: the proposal was defeated and dropped – thanks for your prayers, everyone!].

On politics, is it possible to hold back evil by voting? I suppose if there were people/parties to vote for which were entirely free of evil themselves. But what political person or party is? If some good Christian was truly doing what Christ wanted, it's difficult for me to imagine that he/she would run for high office – or if he/she did, that they would have any success if they were pure in their motives and in their actions. Politics is a very dirty business not for the least of which reasons because it runs on money ("the mother's milk of politics" in the famous quote). Raising money involves compromise. Running for office always means running against someone else. You can't get anything done without allies and they will require you to make deals to do what you want. It's a quagmire that no one I've ever known has made it safely out of without compromising principles (not and winning office or getting bills passed).
"You must not exploit a resident alien or oppress him, since you were resident aliens in the land of Egypt."
Exodus 22:21 CSB

"You must not oppress a resident alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be a resident alien because you were resident aliens in the land of Egypt."
Exodus 23:9 CSB

"You are also to love the resident alien, since you were resident aliens in the land of Egypt."
Deuteronomy 10:19 CSB
Currently in this country, it seems fair to observe that things are not exactly proceeding according to the above. Many on the left who are upset by that blame Christians because Christians disproportionately voted for this administration. They would say, "YOU voted for this!" A Christian might reply, "No, I voted for this administration for other reasons", but it is true that without those votes the situation would be different.. Granted, the other side commits plenty of abuse itself. Unregulated borders led to unprecedented human trafficking and drug traffic, e.g. But this proves my point. If you vote for person/party X or Y, how are you not at least partially complicit for what person/party X or Y does? The Bible does not say, "choose the lesser of two evils in your estimation". What does it say?
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil by means of the good.
Romans 12:21
Do you wish to oppose evil? Understandable. But what person, let alone group of people in this world, could ever be considered "good" in the biblical sense (rather than in a relative and subjective worldly sense)?
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."
Luke 18:19 NIV
Only God is good. Only God and God's truth and God's Spirit can oppose and overcome evil. So if a Christian wishes to oppose evil with good, that won't mean getting involved in sordid politics. Voting won't even work because we also know that God is just and gives every people and nation the government they deserve. So if we deserve evil, evil will come, even if we THINK we are voting/canvassing/working for a good person/party. If, on the other hand, we devote ourselves to doing what God really wants us to do, what Jesus Christ is calling us to do, namely, to grow spiritually, progress in maturity, and help others do likewise through the ministries we're assigned, then we are contributing to growing the remnant according to grace (Rom.11:5), the "salt" that preserves any nation. If we as a nation are more worthy of good than evil – not because of what unbelievers think and say and do but because of the proper behavior of her believers – then good will come. But what if we abandon doing what we know God really wants and spend our time and effort on politics instead? This will have the exact opposite effect of what we want. 
Then the word of the LORD came to me. He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it. Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the LORD says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.’ But they will reply, ‘It’s no use. We will continue with our own plans; we will all follow the stubbornness of our evil hearts.’ ”
Jeremiah 18:5-12 NIV
I don't condemn anyone for voting. Many feel that it is a "civic responsibility". I only wish to point out that 1) it won't change anything because only God can change things and He does so in response to the prayers and spiritual worth of His people – not because of how anyone "votes"; and 2) we are responsible for everything we do, and in this climate, I would not wish to be associated with anyone who is on either side of the political spectrum – or bear any responsibility whatsoever for what they do.  That's my personal application.  I understand other fine believers don't see it the same way.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #19:
Hi Mr. Luginbill,

Thank you for letting me know about the vote postponement. I will be keeping this in prayer and asking God to work it out in such a way that it doesn't cause you any trouble.

On politics, I think I understand the main points you are making here. I do appreciate these latest details you have given me - thank you so much. Just so there is no misunderstanding, I have no desire to become politically involved, I'm just trying to understand the issue so that when I have conversations with others, I will know how to articulate my thoughts if necessary.

I'm struggling to understand what you're saying in this part:

Re: If you vote for person/party X or Y, how are you not at least partially complicit for what person/party X or Y does?

Are you saying that if I vote for person X, and while in office person X does something political and it is wrong, that I am responsible for that wrong action (and they are responsible too)? I know we are all responsible to God for our actions (and our actions most certainly effect others), so that would make sense on the one hand - but on the other hand, I have little to no control over what others do. How would it not then be a sin to vote, since everyone in office is definitely going to take some political action that is sinful, and therefore I would be voting for something wrong (whenever it eventually happened).

Re: I don't condemn anyone for voting. Many feel that it is a "civic responsibility". I only wish to point out that 1) it won't change anything because only God can change things and He does so in response to the prayers and spiritual worth of His people – not because of how anyone "votes";

So essentially, is voting useless? This is what I'm struggling to understand. Do our actions in politics (such as voting) do anything to influence God's plan? That sounds arrogant when I write that out, like we have some sort of "power", which doesn't sound right exactly - still, God has given us the ability to make decisions. The concept of free will decisions makes more sense to me when I apply it to spiritual things. As an example, if I decide to study my Bible today, I have followed through on a "good work" that God prepared for me as in Ephesians 2:10. If I decide not to, and spend my time elsewhere, then I have "missed an opportunity"...unless that opportunity was only hypothetical, since the plan of God has encompassed all of our free will decisions based on what we will do.

Writing this all out, I'm realizing that I don't understand it like I thought I did.

Re: we are responsible for everything we do, and in this climate, I would not wish to be associated with anyone who is one either side of the political spectrum – or bear any responsibility whatsoever for what they do.

I'm not sure this is correct verse to quote here, but it makes me think of 2 John 1:11. Similar concept? Or not?

11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. - 2 John 1:11

If we vote for person X, then we are essentially "taking part" in their actions too? So rather, if we do what we know God wants us to do with spiritual growth and ministry, and allow God to direct the political scene (since we know He works everything out for good for us) we essentially don't have to engage at all, even in voting, since He will ultimately give every country the government they deserve?

Re: Only God is good. Only God and God's truth and God's Spirit can oppose and overcome evil.

I think this is often missing in conversations about politics with other believers (even if one starts out with this in mind), since it doesn't take long for things to get confused.

I apologize for the confused nature of this message - I'm struggling to get this topic sorted out in my mind.

Thank you so much.

Respectfully,
Response #19:
My pleasure. We'll see what happens [update: the proposal was roundly defeated! thanks for the prayers!]. Incidentally, I do vote in our faculty assembly, but in this case I'm not voting for some official who will go off to a capital and do whatever he/she pleases without consulting me, and what happens as a result affects mostly only me and my peers (if that seems inconsistent, I may "resemble that remark").

Voting is not a sin. As to what level of complicity a person has in a democracy when voting for candidate/party A or B, that is something each of us will have to decide for ourselves. If both sides are evil but one is much more evil than the other in our estimation, then we might claim that we are choosing "the lesser of two evils". But of course that is not in the Bible. We may feel we are not responsible for what others do, even if we help put them in power. But of course it is the Lord's opinion that counts.
All a man's ways seem right to him, but the Lord weighs the heart.
Proverbs 21:2 NIV
I don't have any grave problem with Christians voting. I'm certainly NOT going to tell people NOT to do it, and I'm definitely NOT going to go on some crusade to stop them. But it is my job to point out that voting will NOT save this country. Look how many Christians got involved in politics in the last several decades as organized Christianity has gotten politicized and look what it has gotten us. Are we better off for it? I think not. In fact I think that this trend has taken evangelicals in particular away from what little attention they were giving to the Bible previously. Of course that is just my own opinion and not a biblical statement by any means. What I do know is that the Bible makes it clear that 1) we are responsible to obey authority even if we don't approve of it; and even more importantly for our purposes here, 2) only God can actually change things in any country: He is the One who gives us our rulers/governments . . . and He gives us what we deserve. 
The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD,
Like the rivers of water;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
Proverbs 21:1 NKJV
Do we want better government? There is actually only one way to get it, namely, by improving the remnant of grace in whatever country we inhabit. Only when more believers become true "salt" and better and better salt at that, will things get better (link). God blesses those who belong to Him and blesses more and more exceptionally those who are dedicating themselves to walk closely to Him. And if we are more worthy of being blessed – as opposed to chasing after human political solutions to the detriment of our spiritual growth – then those with whom we are associated (friends, family, coworkers and fellow citizens), will receive blessing by association. If all of the Christians in the US today who are gaga about political solutions would spend ten percent of the time they now waste watching news, talking about politics, and engaging in political activities to pursue spiritual growth instead, in no time things would get better instead of getting progressively worse.
"But my people would not listen to me; Israel would not submit to me. So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts to follow their own devices. If my people would only listen to me, if Israel would only follow my ways, how quickly I would subdue their enemies and turn my hand against their foes! Those who hate the LORD would cringe before him, and their punishment would last forever. But you would be fed with the finest of wheat; with honey from the rock I would satisfy you.”
Psalm 81:11-16 NIV
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #20:
Hey Dr. Luginbill, 

Not much to ask and I'll try to be brief but would it be correct to say that James 1:18 is talking about believers being firstfruits now positionally? I noticed you took this verse to be a reference to the coming resurrection. However, as long as we remain believers till death, would this verse also speak of our positional status as belonging to Christ? As in, once we get saved, we are his firstfruits now (in the present), moving forward, after death (for those who will have died before the resurrection) and then at the resurrection itself? That, at least, is how I understood the verse. Does us being firstfruits refer exclusively to the resurrection or is the way I just articulated it correct? 

In Christ, 
Response #20:
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
James 1:18 NIV
I don't think being positionally the Lord's "firstfruits" and also "first" in resurrection compared to the millennial believers are mutually exclusive things (and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise). 

Clearly, the verse says that we are destined to be a sort of "firstfruits" as a result of our being born again, so that this is definitely connected both to salvation as well as to the result of that salvation, our resurrection at Christ's return (see the link).
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
1st Corinthians 15:51-58 NIV

Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 NIV
Hope things are going well with you, my friend.

Keeping you in my prayers,

In Jesus,

Bob L.
http://ichthys.com/