http://ichthys.com/ 
Eschatology Issues CLVII

Question #1:
 Hi Bob and family,

Your words, “Given the totality of the circumstances” sums it up perfectly – and thank you for your prayers, I know God can do wondrous and marvellous things!

And your encouragement “Looking forward to that glorious day to come which knows no end”. Amen to that!

Just noticed few days ago, there has been a significant increase in the traffic toward my articles, which had remained fairly slow for some time and this sudden increase makes me wonder, are more people having ‘a change of heart’. Given the turmoil that is worldwide now, and knowing what is coming it wouldn’t surprise me – and I’m glad if that’s the case!

Are you seeing the same thing?

As always my dear friend,
Response #1:
No, I've not noticed any up-tick, but, to be honest, I've stopped checking traffic on the site for the most part. I haven't noticed any particular increase in email questions from "new folks", but of course only a small percentage of those who read the site ever email me.

As I've mentioned often enough, I thought that the whole Covid disruption would have that effect, namely, of focusing people's attention on the Lord as the only solution and moving believers to get serious about the truth, but it seemed to have the opposite as things dropped off noticeably. 

We're getting close. The real question is what the response will be once the Tribulation starts.

Still, I'm very glad to hear your news! It is an encouragement.

Keeping you and your health in my prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #2:
Hello Dr. Luginbill,

Genesis 1 Verse 3. 
Then God said, “Let there be light” and there was light”.

The question that I have, and perhaps many others have the same, “What/Who was this light”.

The reason for the question is there was no “physical” light, for there was no sun, nor moon, for God did not create it until the fourth day as written in Genesis 1:14-15.

Many years ago, I read a translation of this verse which said, “Let Him be the Light” instead of “Let there be light”.

I know that there are many scriptures that say that Jesus is the Light.

I don’t remember who wrote that the Light was symbolic of “righteousness”.

Can you give me your thoughts, I would greatly appreciate it. 

We read this verse as a part of our study of 1 John Chapter 1.

Thanks for your help in solving our questions.

Blessings to you,

Your friend,
Response #2:
There were reasons for the way in which the Lord re-constructed the universe which had been judged as a result of Satan's revolt, specifically to outline the plan of God for mankind going forward, with the seven Genesis days corresponding to the seven millennial days. I cover all that in SR 5 (here's a link to the overview chart).

To answer your question specifically, these verses all have "God" (Heb. 'elohiym) as their subject, and at verse 26 we read "Let US make man", showing that the reason for the word for God being used throughout (a plural, technically) as apposed to YHVH, is precisely to demonstrate that the whole Trinity was in lockstep in launching this response to the devil. Also, God is light, Christ is God, and thus light has always "been" in terms of the glory of God. So the light which comes into being at God's command in Genesis 1:3 is a creation of Him who is Light.

In a nutshell, darkness represents evil and the judgment upon it while light represents truth and the One who is the truth. To make the world habitable again so that mankind could be used to resolve and win the conflict with Satan (through the One who would share humanity with us), required all of the steps taken during those seven days of re-construction / re-creation (explained at the link above). 

Light separated from darkness is the first step – just as the truth is the first step in salvation. This particular light was not concentrated in one place until the "bodies of light" were created, just as the waters likewise were not concentrated into discrete places at first. This separation process serves as an example and is symbolic of everything that happens in the plan of God for us. We too start out in the dark but come to the light to be saved and are more and more separated from darkness as we become more and more "light in the Lord", as we grow in the light, grow in the truth, and more and more come to live like "children of the light" (Eph.5:8). Finally, in the end, there will be "no more darkness" whatsoever when all is finished, when all is restored, and when we see our Lord and our Father face to face in concert with the whole Church and whole family of God in New Jerusalem forever. Amen!
There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 22:5 NIV
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #3:
Hi Dr L,

Well I am ok. I have been getting too little sleep because there is so much I need/want to do in such small time (job is not bad, but with the Bible study and reading, and Greek, and cognitive stuff), but I am trying to sleep. It is my own fault if that doesn't come through.

If I am being honest, I keep thinking what ifs on if I misunderstand the way of salvation (denominational interpretations and such) or something like that, but I am trying to give it to the Lord and pray and remember the Scripture.

I feel like summer is passing fast.

PS: I have also been racked with a thought...so have you ever heard someone describe something and the image of it popped into your mind, and you don't know if it was you or involuntary? Well when I read about "whoever takes the mark and worships the beast" guess what happened, because it does seem to also just say worship the beast and so if it pops in the mind I have an annoying thought asking if that counts, or if it gets to be a worse image that pops into the mind when you see and hear the things you see and hear if it will count as damnation....if any of that makes sense.

I will say that the Greek has helped me control my mind because I drown it in so much text, but that has been a lot of work, and even then I don't always have complete control. I really hope you don't think badly of me, because God is the only source of Good, so of course I WOULD NOT go to the beast. Please don't worry though, I do have a strong fighting spirit, though I know it can't be hand to hand lol
Response #3:
Re: unwanted thoughts. All believers have to struggle with this, at least until we get to the point of understanding what the evil one is up to and putting the reject button on default so as to virtually automatically dismiss all such unwanted thoughts and the like. We remember that Spirit, "He who is in you", is more powerful and infinitely so than the evil one and his minions ("he who is in the world": 1Jn.4:4). 

I have received a lot of emails on this over the years and they always seem to come from good Christians who are actually "fighting the fight" – and for that reason are receiving this sort of opposition. We remember that these negative things you mention are NOT things we actually affirm or would say or do, so we reject them out of hand and move on without guilt or worry. If we are in any doubt about the sinfulness of what we've thought etc., then we confess and then move on. 

As I've also often said, gaining complete control of our hearts both in positive terms (i.e., entering into the rest of faith and focusing on the Lord) and negative terms (i.e., warding off everything else, especially the sorts of things you mention), is in many respects "the last frontier" of mastering the Christian walk. So you're fighting on a "good front". When in doubt, think positive things and that will help your reject negative ones:
For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
2nd Corinthians 10:4-5 NKJV

(1) Therefore since you have been resurrected [positionally] with Christ, keep seeking after the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. (2) Keep thinking on the things above, and not the things on the earth.
Colossians 3:1-2

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable – if anything is excellent or praiseworthy – think about such things.
Philippians 4:8 NIV
Here are a few links which deal with the subject:
Who Controls our Thoughts and Emotions?
The Battlefield Within IV
The Battlefield Within III
The Battlefield Within: Fighting the inner spiritual Struggle II
The Battlefield Within: Fighting the inner spiritual Struggle.
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #4:
Hi Dr L,

I want to ask: Revelation warns strongly against worship of the beast holding out condemnation as the result. But if an image of us doing so pops into the mind maybe even with accompanying emotions (some of us have way too active imaginations you might say), does that count?

I feel like this sounds really bad. It is kind of similar to if you see someone get hurt or someone else mentions it and you see yourself doing it and even feel as they did (the pain).

Thanks for all of your help,
Response #4:
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about this sort of thing. Worrying about it tends to make it worse. Instead, it's better to adopt the mindset, "This is NOT what I believe and it is NOT what I want to think about – and I know that the Lord forgives me if any of it is my fault at all". Then remember, when under this sort of pressure, that you have the Holy Spirit residing in you to help you with everything, this sort of thing included. So be pleased to give yourself over to His leadership and be at peace (see the link).
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1st John 4:4 KJV
The devil is always trying to get believers who are otherwise living sanctified lives and attempting to grow spiritually off track with this sort of tactic. But we have a right to think what we want and to reject thoughts of which we don't approve – and the same goes with emotions. 

God loves you. Jesus died for you. God is not going to allow you to be lost through some cheap trick. Revelation is very clear that worshiping the beast goes hand in hand with taking his mark (Rev.14:11). The false prophet will require both. These are physical and willful acts which admit of no other interpretation (Rev.13:11-18). 

Please also remember that there is big difference between temptation and succumbing to temptation. Clearly, we don't want to entertain temptations. We want to reject them immediately and out of hand. But having the thought to steal a lollipop and actually stealing a lollipop are two completely different things.
(13) Let no one say when he is being tempted, "I'm being tempted by God!" For God has nothing to do with evil temptations, nor does He tempt anyone. (14) Rather, everyone is tempted by his own lust, being dragged away [by it] and enticed [by it]. (15) Then, should lust conceive (i.e., should the person give in to it), it gives birth to sin. And sin, should it be fully carried out to the end (i.e., should the person give in to a life of sin), produces death (i.e., spiritual death, the death of faith).
James 1:13-15
I have NO doubts about you, my friend. I know that you'd rather die than succumb to taking the mark (as would we all who cherish Jesus Christ above all else).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #5:
Hello Dr. Luginbill! 

Long time, no chat! Of course, that lapse is on me, so apologies on my part. 

I will add your ministry - server matter to the prayer list this week. Lord willing, it goes without a hitch! 

Life has been filled with quite a few fires on this end; it’s comforting to know that others in the “Ichthys/Bible Academy” eco-system- as well as serious believers the world - are experiencing the same.

I had what I believe was an accurate and long overdue realization recently; I don’t think I’ll be able to shake this sense of loneliness until the Lord returns or I’ve left this physical body. 

It isn’t to say that there aren’t dear believers here and there that I can identify with more as they endeavor to truly walk and fellowship with the Lord, but as a whole - by far and away- I will feel like a fish out of water. 

I maybe thought it was a matter of life season, but I think I crossed a line into knowing more (praise the Lord for that guidance and provision and grace) and I can’t unsee it. 

I used to be so social, and had so many “friends”, and found it quite easy to “connect” with others. 

Now? I’ll say it’s generally more relaxing for me to be around animals than it is to share ample time with my own species. 

Of course, life isn’t about being relaxed, but it really has all shifted to being more aware of land mines in “normal” casual interactions as well as potential opportunities there in. Unfortunately, as you know more than I do, the “fish” are not really biting these days. 

I hope you have a wonderful day, sir!! I’ll keep the server transition in prayer! 
Response #5:
Always good to hear from you, and thanks for the prayers on the site migration. I don't have the details or the dates yet [n.b., at time of posting it still hasn't happened]. Waiting to hear.

Yes, it's true, there do seem to be fewer and fewer believers out there who are the least bit serious about the Word so as to "get" our perspective. In fact, there seem to be fewer and fewer who are not off into strange teachings and dangerous practices "emergent church" and dangerous "N.A.R." false teaching. But while it can be lonely on that front, we know that the Lord is always with us, and that togetherness with Him grows as we grow closer to Him in the truth.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.
James 4:8a KJV
We have the Holy Spirit to comfort and encourage us as well. So in spite of the spiritual isolation that spiritual advance can cause (actually, it's the failure on the part of other Christians which is causing it), we can still have joy at all times as we take pains to be at peace in the faith rest our Lord has made possible for all those who are walking closely with Him (link).
"Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."
John 14:27 NKJV
Keeping you in my daily prayers, my friend – and thanks much for yours!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #6:
Hi Dr. L:

Thank you for always taking the time to respond.

I am so hopeful that others will have their "come to Jesus" moment in those dark days. But even as you’ve mentioned, much like what we witnessed during the pandemic, while some people may have a moment to stop and pause, they often never quite reach the deeper, shake-me-up heart change needed to move them in the right direction. So much becomes politicized, and allegiances are pulled toward either the right wing or the left wing—rarely choosing to be under His wing.

I apologize for taking so long to reply. Over the past few weeks, I’ve been caring for our grandchildren while __ (our daughter-in-love) went through a miscarriage. Her health declined severely, and she was near death, having lost a significant amount of blood and requiring a transfusion. She is out of the woods now, but additional concerning symptoms arose. She has since been diagnosed with a blood clot in her arm, and the doctors are conducting further tests to determine the root of these health issues. Please be praying for her, for them, and for us. We are so very grateful.

I also spent the last two days with __ who had surgery on his knee. Praise the Lord, he came through well, and we’re now in the healing and recovery phase. In about a month, I’ll be helping him move where he’ll attend college starting this fall. He loves the Word of God and would gladly spend his time spreading the gospel and helping others grow in deeper truths, but he knows he must also tend to his "tent-making."

In May, I spent some time in California with __ and __ who had his graduation ceremonies at (though he completed his studies last fall). Over the past year, I’ve spent more intentional and focused time educating my sons about these last days. They receive it well, ask questions, but—like many—I think they still hope the end times are farther off, rather than close at hand. I remember feeling that way myself as a teen, fearing a spaceship would beam us up at any moment (pre-trib).

I must admit, I sort of hit a wall the last few days. All I can say is—I’m tired. Not weary, just tired. I tend to take care of everyone, yet often overlook myself. Working on changing that. How are you?

We think of you often and pray for you when we do. We are truly looking forward to emerging from this past season and settling back into our home, which we left last summer when my parents' health crisis began. We’re praying for the Lord’s leading, for His clear direction, and for a lighter, less burdensome load. He has been so faithful and good to us.

We are praying over the situation with the host company and server. How may we help? Our prayers are a given.
In the name of Jesus,
Response #6:
"Left wing / right wing . . . best place is under His wing" – I love that (Ps.91:4)!

Thanks for the prayers on the site migration. I'll let you know if technical problems. A new server probably means a new IP address but the domain name will be the same. I'm no "ace" at these sorts of issues, so any insight would be appreciated.

I'm very sorry to hear about __. I know that this is a difficult thing, far more so than those who've not been personally involved with such a loss sometimes realize. I'll say a prayer for her comfort and also will be keeping her recovery (blot clot) in prayer. Please let me know how this goes. Would you like a prayer request placed on the site?

Thanks for the updates about your family (glad to hear that things worked out for __). 

Re: "hope the end times are farther off, rather than close at hand". That is surely understandable, especially for those who are younger or just starting out, starting families, careers, etc. 

Personally, I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, avoiding the Tribulation for a while would not be at all bad (I think, of course the way things are going . . . ); on the other hand, once it starts, we'll be with the Lord in a mere seven years (not that they will be easy going). These things are in His hands, of course, individually and collectively. None of us has a guarantee on tomorrow. We all have to do the best we can to carry our crosses today. If we do that, everything else will work out . . . because He will work it out (Rom.8:28).

Have the issues with your parents been ironed out? I am praying for wisdom for you two in the figuring out the best next move and the timing.

Here's also hoping – and praying – that you get your "second wind" soon, my friend . . . and a little bit of rest from all the stressful situations.

Thank you for your prayers, your support, and for all you are doing for the Body of Christ.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #7:
[omitted]
Response #7:
Great news about __'s exams! I'm continuing to pray for success.

Good to hear that your efforts to get back into shape are meeting with some success. Same here as well, although it's been a struggle this summer. Blessedly the mechanics are holding up (trouble with them is what led to getting out of pretty good shape in the first place).

Re: __, here's part of an email I just received (I don't think they'd mind me sharing it with you, and they can use the prayer): [omitted]

Thanks for the background. I think the same on politics and news too. Less is more in every way!

First, it is a shame that you are not being supported by a church so as to be able to study and teach the Word of God without having to "make tents" to feed yourself and your family. It is an indictment of Laodicean believers generally that you (and others) have taken the time and sacrificed so much to become prepared teachers but are not valued as such, while others who are only good at the emotional preaching of pointless sermons et al. are swimming in comparative luxury. People get what they deserve, however, and those who only want a show once or twice a week will be on the short end when it comes to our Lord passing out rewards.

As to the other matters, you seem to me have fixed upon the right way to think (and act) on the career front. Things NEVER turn out the way we expect – at least that is my life testimony. But as you also rightly assess, the Lord takes care of us no matter what. Humility in our assessments and our implementation is always a good thing. After all, while it's great to be zealous, we don't want to be guilty of it being "not according to knowledge" (Rom.10:2). We don't want to veer off the road on either side. As tempting as it sometimes is to become idle on the one hand or overly zealous on the other, the middle path is the only safe one. 

You have, from what I can tell, a good grip on the most essential elements now to make reasonable decisions about all this – as all spiritually mature believers do. What is needed now is the Lord's provision – and He never lets us down (even though we often have to wait longer than we would prefer – that is THE test, after all: of perseverance). 

So don't let the wind and waves upset you. Keep your eyes on Him. He won't let you sink.
In that day they will say, “Surely this is our God; we trusted in him, and he saved us. This is the LORD, we trusted in him; let us rejoice and be glad in his salvation.”
Isaiah 25:9 NIV
Keeping you all in my daily prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #8:
Hi Dr L,

How are you doing? I hope your college and garden are going well!

Question. You say that the baby animal is a horse, but the text seems to say it is a donkey's baby (so is it a donkey)? I understand that the way they categorize animals might work differently, just wanted to ask.

Also, the Bible seems to make a point of antichrist's arrogant words. The thing is that there have been plenty of regular humans who have said very arrogant things, is the difference here that given the antichrist's resources and opportunity (like essentially taking over the world) that it is a larger deal for him? I mean to say someone who is impotent and just on the side of the road ranting might just catch ridicule vs someone who seems to have massive secular power.

Don't overwork yourself,
Response #8:
I'm doing OK. Trying to get some research done, but a lot of personal admin issues this week. Hope your job is going well.

This is a difficult issue because the Hebrew doesn't put things exactly the way the gospels do. Matthew 21:2 has "colt" while Matt.21:5 has "colt" and "donkey", and so does Matt.21:7. Mark and Luke only have the colt. John 12:15 has our Lord quoting the Hebrew passage, Zephaniah 9:9 as "colt of a donkey". All this could just mean "donkey" – except for the fact that Matthew 21:7 has "They brought the donkey AND the colt and put on THEM their cloaks, and he sat on THEM" (ESV correctly from the Greek). Further, Matthew often "doubles", that is, gives more details about the situation. For example, at Matthew 20:29-34 has two blind men, not one (as Mk.10:46-52; and Lk.18:35-43 ). That does not mean Matthew is wrong. Similarly, therefore, we can conclude that the other gospels focused on the one animal the Lord was riding (He could only ride on one at a time, I would guess). The horse's colt speaks of the second advent of glory; the donkey of the humility of our Savior in His first advent.
(8) I was considering these [ten] horns when, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them. And three of the previous horns were rooted up from before it. And, behold, this horn had eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking presumptuous things (i.e., against God). (9) I kept looking until thrones were set down and the Ancient of Days (i.e., the Father) took His seat. His attire was white as snow, as was the hair of His head, [white] like the purest wool. His throne was aflame with fire, and its wheels were a blazing fire. (10) A river of fire was flowing, and it poured forth from before Him. Thousands upon thousands were ministering to Him, and myriads upon myriads were standing before Him. The court was seated and the books were opened. (11) Meanwhile, I kept looking on account of the sound of the arrogant words which the horn (i.e., antichrist) was speaking. I kept looking until he was killed and his body destroyed and given over to the burning fire. 
Daniel 7:8-11 
The astounding (in a bad way) thing about antichrist's arrogance is that it will directed against God and against His true Messiah. The beast will say things that no other human being (he is only half of one, after all) would dare to say or be able to say and get away with it (and it will be temporary).

Happy Friday!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #9:
Hey Bob, I’ve read several of your answers to questions regarding 1 John 2:19 on your website. I have a quick question regarding these verses. Who is "They" in the first word of verse 19? It seems most agree that we read this verse to mean believers in general either can or cannot lose their salvation. However, reading it through from verse 18 makes it seem like John is saying it was these Antichrists who were "not of us," in which case this verse would have nothing to do with this topic at all. If it’s not the Antichrists John is speaking about in 19, verse 18 almost seems out of place. Thoughts? 
Response #9:
The "they" are people who have abandoned fellowship with other believers. That covers a fair amount of ground, potentially. It can mean those who were never saved (lots of those in the church visible at present today too), or those who were saved but are turning back to the world. In terms of the second group, it can mean apostates (those who abandon their faith completely and revert to being unbelievers) or backsliding believers (who are on a very bad track likely to lead to the sin unto death). For our purposes – and John's as well – it doesn't really matter. Only those who are marching forward "with us" are now "of us" in terms of continuation of fellowship and mutual support through our ministries and gifts. That will be especially true during the Tribulation.

In terms of OSAS or hyper-Calvinism, clearly this passage can't be a defense of those false positions because the "they" does by definition include anyone who is at present not part of the fellowship, and that has to mean all of the types considered above. The main point of the verse is to show that just because a person is NOW doing what the Lord wants (or pretending to) does not meant that he/she always will (or ever really was). Again, during the Tribulation, we know for sure that many who are now at least putatively believers will abandon the faith.
(10) And at that time many will fall away and will betray each other and will hate each other, (11) and many false prophets will arise and will deceive many. (12) Now because of the increase of lawlessness [at that time], the love of the many will cool. (13) But he who endures until the end, this [is the one who] will be saved.
Matthew 24:10-13
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #10:
Hey Bob, Another inquiry about verse 19. You mentioned in one of your replies that verse 19 uses the phrase “not of us” whereas the OSAS crowd thinks it means “never of us.” I’ve been scouring the different translations of this verse and found only found one that said “never.” 

NLT “They never really belonged to us.”

I’m not really familiar with the NLT. I’ve heard it was an upgrade to what was apparently a pretty bad Living Bible. Their website says they used these texts but I couldn’t read them online and wouldn’t know what I’m reading even if I could find them. 

the Greek New Testament, published by the United Bible Societies (fourth revised edition, 1993), and Novum Testamentum Graece, edited by Nestle and Aland (twenty-seventh edition, 1993)

Do you know if these or any original Greek texts actually translate to “never?” I’m assuming at least the vast majority do not based on how many translations do not mention “never,” but I am curious if any at all do. 

Thank you. 
Response #10:
There is no "never" there in any of the manuscript traditions. That is a (false) interpretation, an interpretive translation of the sort one often gets from the NLT. NLT is interesting and sometime helpful, but like the red-haired girl who, "when she was good was very very good, but when she was bad she was awful", so with this translation: when they get it wrong, they often get it dangerously wrong. If the word "never" were here, it would, as you discern, change the entire meaning. Then it would mean that these people were always unbelievers – which might indeed have been true of some of them. But it would also mean, as the hyper-Calvinist no doubt want it to mean, that no "true Christian" could ever turn away. So if you turn away, you were never really a Christian in the first place. 

The spiritual dangers of this false teaching are pretty obvious, especially on the threshold of the Tribulation. Because anyone who knows they are a believer (and we all ought to know that if we are!) will think, no matter what, I can't lose my salvation. So why not take the mark in order to provide for my family? I'm going to heaven "no matter what". But that is not the case since apostasy – and the sin unto death for that matter too – are real (see the link).
Question #11:
Thanks Bob. A couple more questions to help me defend my position here. I’m using the nasb for English and FPB for modern Greek here fyi. What about the use of δὲν in 1john 2:19 makes it not mean never but in say, John 9:32 it does mean never? Also, would these words have been used at all by John or were his "ancient" Greek words completely different? I’m definitely in way over my head here but I’m eager to learn. Do you have any suggestions on how to start learning the kind of Greek the apostles used so I can better research this stuff myself?
Response #11:
The New Testament is in Classical Greek (some people call it "Koine" but it's the same language either way). Modern Greek is considerably different (thanks to the Turks and the ban on Greek education that obtained after the fall of Byzantium, the language went into free fall for several centuries). 

The word δὲν is Modern Greek.  Long story short, a Modern Greek NT is no better at figuring things out than an English translation (maybe worse – because, being Greek, they feel they know the language when if fact modern usage often leads them astray when it comes to interpreting the Classical language). So, bottom line, I'm confused as to why you would be using a Modern Greek rendition. Happy to discuss the actual Bible, but I can't explain mistaken translations in other languages.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #12:
Fair enough. I’m completely new to the Greek side of the Bible. I guess I just incorrectly assumed modern and classical were more closely related than they are. I’ll work on the classical take on this verse. I appreciate the insight. 
Response #12:
The important thing to note is that the Greek New Testament is THE original Bible (along with the Hebrew Old Testament). Everything else is a translation of the original. So in this case it's a little like reading the actual Bible (Greek NT) versus reading a translation of it (like the English KJV). The fact that the translation you reference is in later, modern Greek, doesn't make it any less of a translation (or any better of a translation – possibly it's worse) than the KJV . . . or any other English version.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #13:
Hey Bob, I was thinking about the first email between us in this chain where we discussed the "they" in verse 19. I definitely agree that verse 19 discusses only the salvation status of those individuals at that point in time. However, in verse 18 many translations say these people "have come" or "have appeared." This makes it sound past tense like they weren’t save when they arrived. The KJV version however seems to agree with our position by saying "now are there many." In the original Greek manuscripts is there only one consistent phrase being used here and something is being lost in translation or are there actual conflicting wordings? How would you translate the second half of verse 18?
Response #13:
The verb "appeared" etc. in 1st John 2:18 is in the perfect tense. As in English, while it may sound "past" to some, it is describing a present state (with antecedents in the past). I.e., if I say someone "has been educated", I mean he/she is possessed of an education NOW as a result of some process of education leading up to this point. Same sort of thing in Greek.

However, verse 18 is speaking of false teachers (antichrists). The "they" of verse 19 may include these "antichrists" but also includes any and all who left the fellowship of believers for any reason – as in following said antichrists and their false teaching – just like many weak believers are prophesied to do following THE antichrist during the Tribulation. 

So there is overlap but not equivalence between the two. 

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #14:
Ok thanks Bob. So let me play devil’s advocate here. How do we KNOW that the "they" in 19 also includes other people than these Antichrists? You mentioned this in your first reply. "The "they" does by definition include anyone who is at present not part of the fellowship, and that has to mean all of the types considered above." What do you mean by definition of "they?"
Response #14:
To answer your question about the "they" in 1st John 2:18, "they" is a pronoun in English and in Greek. In English these pronouns are "stand alone" words. In Greek, they often are endings on the verb only. That is the case here. 

Pronouns always have antecedents. That is to say, they always refer to something, usually obvious in context. If you've ever had freshman English composition, you've probably experienced the pain of your instructor circling your pronouns in red and remarking something like "antecedent ambiguous". There are ways in English to make it clear exactly who the e.g., "they" are in context. The same is true of Greek. 

Could "they" be referring to the antichrists? Yes. But if John had wanted to make that connection obvious, he could have used a demonstrative, e.g., "THESE went out from us". By only using the pronoun on the verb, John leaves it more generic than is obvious from an English translation. Figuring out who the "they" here are is a matter of interpretation. When I read this in Greek I do not get the impression (based upon much experience in Greek), that he is referring to the antichrists per se and solely, but rather to all the individuals who have left the fellowship. 

John has mentioned a division between those who are doing what they should be doing as believers and those who are not throughout the prior context (e.g., 1Jn.2:4; 2:11; 2:15). These individuals, people who have not done as they should and have subsequently departed from the fellowship, are the "they". The only way I can see to make the "they" synonymous with "antichrists" is to assert that John is calling all who have departed from the fellowship "antichrists". That is not only not consistent with scripture in general but more particularly is directly opposed to what John says elsewhere: antichrists are liars (1Jn.2:22), deniers (1Jn.4:3) and deceivers (2Jn.1:7) – in other words, antichrist are active opponents of the truth, not merely believers who have fallen away from the fellowship only.

That makes sense to me too given who "the" antichrist is, i.e., not just someone who doesn't believe, or who once believed and has fallen away, or who believes but has taken a wrong path, but a diehard lieutenant of the devil. Such individuals would doubtless NOT "go out" from a Christian fellowship of their own accord (if they have managed to worm their way in). They would have to be expelled.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #15:
Thank you Bob. I’ve been stewing over this since you replied and this makes a lot of sense now. Funny how you can read the same verse and chapters so many times and still learn more about it.
Response #15:
Re: "Funny how you can read the same verse and chapters so many times and still learn more about it." There is always "more" in the Bible, and not just in individual passages but also when you start making the connections between passages. In this one in particular, if you look at the mentions of antichrist(s), you see part of John's method. As with sin/sinning, John puts things in a black and white context. Either you are a believer who doesn't sin or you are not a believer. By which he means that sinning is inconsistent with our status (we know from the first two chapters that believers do sin and in fact are liars if they say they do not, and that there is a solution: confession – with Jesus as our Advocate); still, we are not supposed to sin so that John can put things the way he does: if you are sinning you are acting as if you are not a believer. 

Similarly here, if you go out of the fellowship you are in fact "out" and thus you are not much different from an antichrist. John doesn't bother to parse the differences in motivation or spiritual status. Going out is "bad" and that is enough to put the person in the antichrist category. Black and white for the sake of motivating readers to do the right thing.

The Spirit directed John to put things in this absolute way no doubt because that is the simple message we all need to keep foremost in our mind, namely, "abide in Him" (Jn.15:4-9; 1Jn.2:27-28; 3:17; 4:13); if we are continuing in faith we are saved; otherwise we are not believers and only believers are saved (Jn.3:18).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #16:
Hey Bob, I had someone show me this and said that "of" in "they were not of us" means that they were not of us from the beginning. They showed me this claiming that "of" is denoting their origin with us. I realize "of" can mean of the origin of a location for example "Joan of Arc,"but can it also be an origin of time?
Response #16:
This is a good example of someone with "just enough Greek to be dangerous". Languages are languages. They do what they do and they mean what they mean. They do NOT do or mean what they theoretically might possibly do or mean from a logical perspective. 

"Point of interest" might, I suppose, mean, "point coming from time of interest" . . . but it clearly does not. "Of us" in its context means "part of" so as to mean with the negative "not part of us". 

Questions of time have to come from the context, specific vocabulary and from the tense of the verb. So "they were not of us" begs the question, "at that time or from the very beginning?" To which I answer that there is nothing in the entire verse to indicate that the "not of us" predated the point of departure. Clearly it probably did. I mean, they probably didn't leave at the exact instant of time they lost faith or become disinterested in spiritual growth. But there is no basis in the language to conclude that those who leave the fellowship were NEVER believers – or even that they were not believers upon leaving (since there is a category of person who backslides, after all, and some, like the prodigal son, do come back). 

In other words, 1st John 2:19 means exactly what it says and it is improper to try and make it mean more than it actually says – especially since we know from reading carefully the entire epistle (and John's other four books) that John is allowed by the Spirit to put things into very simple and (seemingly) absolute terms to make his point (as in 1Jn.3:9: "Whoever has been born of God does not sin" meaning "continue in sin" as we know from 1Jn.1:8-10; 1Jn.2:1-2). 

Since the context of our passage is "many antichrists" (1Jn.2:18), we can say that at the very least these departing persons are following and casting their lot in with dangerous false teachers, whether or not they have already completely apostatized.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #17:
Hi Bob,

Sending you an update. A lot of changes have happened very rapidly here. Firstly, just had my first ever two hours of driving instruction. I think I did pretty well considering it was my very first time and other factors were stacked up against me. Sadly I also got a really bad teacher, who really got upset and angry every time I made a mistake and so I kept saying "sorry, sorry" all the time. At one point I thought this is so horrific that I just wanted to stop the lesson and walk home, the teacher didn't reassure me at all. Then a dad let his little kid on a scooter play right in front of my car on the road! The instructor kept telling me to drive even though the kid wouldn't move...well I survived that and I did learn some steering and clutch control and the biting point of the clutch and the gears whilst not looking at them. I managed to do all this whilst the teacher told me how his last student learned in three lessons because he was 'a natural' and had 'street smarts' whereas I didn't apparently. Oh yes.. and the instructor had road rage on the drive home! Suffice to say I am in the market for another instructor! 

It did occur to me whilst I was sitting there in the car that everything will be terrible, moving forward, particularly through the Tribulation. That any dealings with the unbelieving world at all will be full of nasty characters behaving in a bullying and generally abusive ways. I'll be patient though and keep going!

[omitted] I have passed caring about whether I have this roof over my head in the future or not. It will probably be academic in the future anyway given the Antichrist's confiscation of property when we refuse the mark. So I shouldn't really be ruffled by any of this at all. Whatever happens, the Lord will get me through it. That money and inheritances can be used to give false hope and then use as a tool of control and manipulation, I shouldn't be surprised. It is not as if God invented money. Everything was free in the garden of Eden after all. As Job says, we are naked coming in and going out and the Lord both gives and takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord!

My only sure and lasting inheritance is with Him! Amen! In Him I trust! 

(You can print this with redactions!)

In Jesus,
Response #17:
It sounds to me as if you did tremendously well with your lesson in spite of the most difficult possible circumstance, namely, a "teacher" who is actually a hindrance. If I may ask, why are you learning to drive a clutch car? I don't even know of any current major brands which have anything but automatics. Mind you, I loved my old Datsun B210 . . . but it was a 1975 model!

I'm sorry to hear about __ et al. I think your conclusion and attitude are correct. There won't be any money in New Jerusalem, and the deeds we get to one of the "many mansions" our Lord has promised will be eternal! It's all worth whatever we have to bash through in the meantime (even if we get a bit bashed ourselves in the process). I appreciate your godly point of view!

Keeping you in my prayers for all this, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #18:
Thanks Bob,

I think the car market in America may be more sophisticated your side of the pond as I still know a lot of drivers using the clutch. It may be that some of my family have second hand cars whereas the richer members have huge SUV automatics.

I have wealthier members of family with automatics but they are not exactly generous with things. I just don't have that kind of family that shares things or helps people out. Yes they are all Roman Catholics but they wouldn't dream of helping someone out who was trying to get on, not even family. I used to think this was the normal model for family life but I now know it isn't! This is probably what put me off the whole Catholic racket, the acting pious on a Sunday but then not lifting a finger when even their own kinfolk were going under. I guess they are the natural progression from the Pharisees in our Lord's day.

Anyway I figured I should learn manual because at least then I can drive both. Can't get a good instructor at the moment given it is the summer so instead I have given myself a month to swot for the theory and have booked the test in.

I sometimes think that the Lord wants me to be able to cope with being around abusers better, to be able to backheel them but in a Godly way. I sometimes feel that maybe it is the lion's den that the Lord wants me to go in and master with faith. We shall see, the Lord always guides my path.

Really glad to say that the Lord has been busy clearing my path for takeoff! I realise that it is really up to me now to start moving forward into the air! Have plenty irons in the fire now but it is up to me to use them! 

In Jesus,
Response #18:
Good teaching requires patience. If your instructor doesn't have it, you'd be well served finding a better one. Learning to shift isn't all bad. I admire you learning how to drive! Not easy to do . . . and VERY hard without a car of your own to practice with.

Keep those irons hot!

Keeping you in my prayers my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #19:
Thanks for the encouragement!

I am struggling to find another instructor that is available. Have messaged and phoned so many now and most don't even bother returning calls! [omitted]

I don't know if it is my imagination or part of testing but I have noticed that people are out of the way unhelpful these days but I will keep going.

On the whole I am muddling through but I guess this waiting for the inevitable is wearying on its own but I am trying my best to use the time left wisely and productively, only casting a glance now and then to what is going on globally so it doesn't distract from the day to day.

[omitted]

In last week's emails I noticed that one of the brethren was also struggling with guilt over whether to reply to a family member or not over an abusive situation. Your wise counsel here also ministered to me too. Thanks for that.

I know that if I keep my eyes on the Lord, what was meant for evil for me can be used for good.

How are you doing my friend?
Response #19:
I'm surprised! How can you run a business and not take people's calls?

I'm very sorry to hear of the continuing issues with __, but then again in my experience people usually don't change . . . unless they get around to letting the Lord change them.

Defensive driving is definitely important. Did I ever share with you Bob's rules for beginning drivers? Here they are (repeat?):

1) Don't hit anything.

2) Don't let anything hit you.

3) Don't get a ticket.

4) And don't get mad.

Keeping you in my prayers (let me know how this all plays you).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #20:
Thanks Bob,

Don't s'pose you want to fly over and teach me the Bob way? It may be quicker the rate things are going. Only, as they apparently say...we don't drive on the left here, we drive on what's left!!

[omitted]

I remember when I had a personal crisis when I was much younger, literally no one popped by or knocked or phoned to see how I was doing. When people are younger and struggling alone, it isn't as obvious to people that they may need help. When people are older though, they tend to be more on people's radars. I guess we all make assumptions on situations based on outside appearances. It has been a real eye opener the last few years. Who would've thought trying to help people would be so fraught with potholes?! Much the same terrain as English roads!!

Hope you have a good weekend!

In Jesus,
Response #20:
It is sad that people can't even be the least bit appreciative, even perfunctorily so.

"We drive on what's left" – love it! In defense of your instructors (maybe not the really bad one), it takes a lot of patience to be a good teacher, and it's really difficult to teach someone else to drive without occasionally hitting the roof. 

I taught my Chinese friend to drive out in CA. I still remember him barreling through the empty parking lot, hub caps flying off, and me trying to talk him down without going ape. I think even so he felt I was a little impatient (well, I didn't want him dead, not to say myself). Some time later he taught his wife to drive and apparently it was fraught. He commented to me, "I can't believe how patient you were with me!" 

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
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