http://ichthys.com/ 
Eschatology Issues CXLIX

Question #1:
Hello Dr. Luginbill,

Just thought you might enjoy the story I have attached as a document for your review.

Really? Hope you enjoy:
An ancient Biblical event in which Christians disappear from Earth and those who remain are left to face Doomsday is believed to be just days away. Claims by social media users, as well as respected pastors and rabbis, have pushed the idea that the Rapture will begin on September 23, marking the Second Coming of Jesus and Judgment Day for non-believers. This year, September 23 falls during the Jewish Feast of Trumpets, also known as Rosh Hashanah, but some Christians have tied the holiday to the prophecy that Jesus will return to Earth 'with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God.' The prophecy is mentioned in the Bible, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, which states that even the faithful who have died will rise from their graves and be taken to heaven by Jesus; however, a date for this event is not given. In a YouTube video viewed nearly 500,000 times, Pastor Joshua Mhlakela, a South African preacher, claimed Jesus appeared to him in a divine vision and said he would return during the Feast of Trumpets. 'The rapture is upon us, whether you are ready or not. I saw Jesus sitting on his throne, and I could hear him very loud and clear saying, I am coming soon,' Mhlakela said during the interview with CettwinzTV. 'He said to me on the 23rd and 24th of September 2025, I will come back to the Earth,' the pastor declared. Even more clips predicting the imminent return of Jesus this month have been viewed hundreds of thousands of times in the last week alone. 
Response #1:
I've been get reports about this making the rounds. Interesting that our Lord would appear in person to this fellow alone and tell him that we are going be resurrected BEFORE the Tribulation . . . when our Lord had previously said the following in His holy Word:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, (cf. 1Cor.15:52; 1Thes.4:16) and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Matthew 24:29-31 NKJV
So the Lord changed His mind? And this is the only person on earth He chose to share that critical change with? But we know different:
"For I am the LORD, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob."
Malachi 3:6 NKJV
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
James 1:17 NKJV
Whether or not the Tribulation begins this fall we will know pretty soon. I am partial to 2026 as you know. But in any case the calendar used today to plot Jewish holidays postdates even our Lord's day. It's the Lord's calendar and His plan and His Word to which we give our attention. Not to third party reports of supposed visions that someone whose bona fides we cannot validate may or may not have actually seen/heard (or thought he did).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #2:
Hello again Dr. Loginbill,

You know that I totally agree with your response.

I just had a thought about this. What about what all the prophets said about the last days and all the rest of the writings that God spoke to other believers, are they not prophetic, is God going to change those that he dictated to these writers?

I don't think so. I just threw a monkey wrench into what this person wrote about, it absolutely cannot be true.

Regards.

Your friend Charles.
Response #2:
That's right. But all cults and religions and false prophets and wolves of every sort generally never even bother to intersect with scripture, any scripture – except to misuse this verse or that to lead others astray for their own advantage.

The best one can say about a "pastor" who is spitting out this sort of nonsense is that he is mentally ill. Any other possibility is very dark.

Plenty of this to come in the near future, so it's good for believers to become inured and inoculated to this sort of tripe before the fact.
"Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many."
Matthew 24:11 NKJV

"For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand."
Matthew 24:24-25 NKJV
So we are forewarned – by the Lord Himself. That being the case, it is sad that so many believers are so immature and so ill-informed about scripture that they rush after anyone who claims to have a vision or a special revelation, even when it contradicts the Bible clearly and directly.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #3:
Hi Bob,

Thanks for the emails. Took a lot of concentration this week. A great reminder to keep growing spiritually and preparing.

A few very busy weeks ahead for you, Bob? I'll be keeping the prayers going for you.

Thanks so much for your prayers too!

In Jesus
Response #3:
It was a dense posting, I'll admit (link), but this month (and next) is the last possibility for things to begin earlier than anticipated, and I felt it was important to get all this out there. Thanks for concentrating! I know, I put the densest part (about the ascension year of Tiberius) right at the end – just when you thought you were almost done reading!

Yup, a very busy week ahead. Depending upon how things go, next week might be OK. We're going to have to jump when the third case comes in (no way of knowing when; he's waiting on extramural reviewers from various places around the country and the world to send in their assessments).

Tomorrow should be OK as it's only teaching.

Thanks for those prayers!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #4:
Hi Bob, 

I really appreciate all the information you posted in this week's emails (link). It's important and I'll definitely be re-reading them. All the people on social media predicting the "rapture" will happen on September 23 or 24 this year should be using their time to read your materials instead. 

Thanks so much for your prayers, Bob!

I hope classes went well today.

Keeping you in my prayers.

In Jesus
Response #4:
Thanks! 

I had no idea there were "rapture" predictions for this month. 23/24 is Rosh Hashana, the Jewish new year (according to the present day Jewish calendar), so that's probably why this is the date they're fixating on. October 1/2 is the Day of Atonement, which is a more likely date . . . if the present day Jewish calendar were in line with "God's calendar" (and as pointed out in one of this week's emails the present "Anno Mundi" calendar was not even in existence in our Lord's day: link). I can't be dogmatic about the precise day the Tribulation will begin, but I can be about the fact of "no rapture" this month (or ever, not pre-Trib, that is).

Thanks for the report. I had a good Monday too as far as classes go. Now I'm "into it" with these personnel letters. Looking forward to Saturday!

Keeping you and yours in my prayers. Thanks for your prayers too!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #5:
Yes, the hype about the "rapture" being on 23/24 September is partly because it's Rosh Hashanah - the Feast of Trumpets. Also, a video went viral showing a South African pastor claiming he had a vision of Jesus seated on his throne, telling him he would return on the 23rd or 24th September. There's other stuff as well but I couldn't be bothered to read or listen to it!

As you say, Bob, there's never going to be a Pre-trib "rapture". People actually believe these predictions. I wonder - when it turns out to be false and they're still here - does it finish off whatever faith they had to begin with. The same as when the Tribulation kicks off and those who believed Pre-trib realise they've got to go through it.

For those who sincerely want and seek the truth, the Lord will always provide it.

In Jesus
Response #5:
That's right! But if a person will believe in a pre-Trib rapture in spite of scripture (such as Matt.24:21-31), then I suppose it's not great stretch to start believing in visions other people have supposedly had – third party reports (always ill-advised; see the link). Anyone can claim anything at any time, and believers tend to be even more gullible than the average unbeliever – especially when the visionary makes some claim to being a believer or teacher or pastor. It always makes me think of this passage . . . and shudder:
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
James 3:1 NIV
And this one:
"If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
Matthew 18:6 NIV
Re: "For those who sincerely want and seek the truth, the Lord will always provide it." Amen!
"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."
Luke 11:9 NIV
Keeping you and your family in my daily prayers.

On this end, thanks for yours! Things have actually been going pretty smoothly on personnel. A lot of work, but the committee is good and doing its job. We may be able to make do without that late Friday meeting!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #6:
What is the extent of your ministry?
Response #6:
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by your question, but you can find out most everything you'd like to know about Ichthys on the FAQ page and the links it provides. I'm also happy to answer any specific questions you may have.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #7:
Your FAQ section answered my question. I should have just went there. You recommend The Bible Academy for tithing. His website is vague about who he actually is or where he is located. I want to know who I am sending money to. That makes sense, right? Also, I assume he is not teaching a pre trib rapture. Thank you.
Response #7:
No worries.

While Pastor Omo does accept donations, I don't think he ever calls them "tithes". That was a system of taxation under the Law (link), and has no genuine place in the Church.

Re: "I assume he is not teaching a pre trib rapture." That's correct! And a good thing too, because it doesn't exist (see the link).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #8:
Hi again Bob,

[omitted]

So I guess that I have extra clarification about my ministry. There is no point in sharing my ministry or your ministry with believers who have no desire whatsoever to learn or grow but actually want others who are advancing in the faith to be dragged down with them.

I have really tried Bob and all these sharp contentions are such a waste of time. __ could be advancing in the faith rather than trying to have these regular tussles with me.

I guess the church has always had these types of problem though.

In Jesus,
Response #8:
I'm no psychologist, and in fact I find great fault with the discipline. But I have noticed in my life that there are a lot of people out there who love drama and who thrive on confrontation. And when they are lonely or bored, they seek out those they can irritate. Indulging people like this is worse than a waste of time because it upsets our spiritual peace and sets us back personally while accomplishing nothing good. 

Anyone who is truly serious about growing will be led to see very quickly that spiritual growth cannot be accomplished by the Chinese restaurant approach: one from column A, one from column B, one from column C. Even if A, B and C do have "items" which are actually true, people who are rebellious to authority and who assume that they will decide what is true will invariably MISS the few correct things that A, B or C are teaching and end up worse than ever in terms of the truth. But they are not really interested in the truth or they wouldn't adopt that method. 

Anyone with a lick of sense can see that any good system or place of teaching is rare and once found, like the good tree producing good fruit, should be appreciated and respected. But Smorgasbord-ers are really disrespecting God because they won't accept the authority of any of His stewards who dispense spiritual food, not even the marginal ones. If these people came into a marginal place with the right attitude, they would eventually be led to find something better, trading "up" until they got to the best place for them to grow. But deciding for yourself what is true, that is, after all, the basis for the devil's entire world system: putting the actual truth to death with your own truth (i.e., "lies").

We cannot "straighten out" people like this. Even throwing them a lifeline is often a mistake. And if they've already tried to pull us under when they grabbed it many times in the past (as in this case), well then . . . People have to determine on their own to change, and no amount of truth gratuitously proffered to them is going to change them. They have to want the truth for themselves.
“You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.” “What is truth?” retorted Pilate.
John 18:37-38a NIV
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #9:
[omitted]
Response #9:
Christians tend to imagine the best about other people. It's OK to hope for the best, and we don't want our "love to run cold", but we're also told by the Lord to be "wise as serpents", even as we ourselves are "harmless as doves" (Matt.10:16; cf. also 1Cor.14:20), meaning at least in part that we have to understand that people are people, and that absent being spiritually mature and striving to please the Lord, very few people are honorable through and through. And in my experience, people who CLAIM to be Christians but are not (or are terribly immature and walking in the wrong direction) tend to be far worse than many unbelievers.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #10:
Thanks Bob,

I absolutely agree with that last statement that false Christians are more dangerous than unbelievers. An unbeliever knows they are not 'in Christ' but a false believer/false brethren doesn't or deceives themselves that they are (as one person said 'they are deceived on purpose').

It is a very sad state of affairs (and further signs of the times) that I have felt much 'safer' watching secular T.V. (as long as it isn't sinful) than a channel like 'God TV' which is crammed with false teaching from sun up to sun down.

Sadly, I have also realised that I am far 'safer' being in a secular building such as a cafe etc than in any church building. It is because the enemy wages war the hottest in the places where true believers abound in the hope of tripping them up and luring them over to his side. He doesn't seem to bother wasting time or energy on 'fronts' he already believes he has conquered a long time ago. I have noticed though that he will send along someone influenced by him even when we don't venture into these places where the battle is waged the hottest.

Obviously by the time we enter ministry then that will be the front where he will deploy most of his muscle. He doesn't want to cede ground to any one of our ministries does he.

It's like you said a few emails ago that if I think unbelievers are bad, then wait until I have to deal with a lukewarm baby Christians/false Christians who are convinced of their own inerrancy and are not even slightly interested in humbling themselves earnestly before God and one of His appointed ministers/ministries.

Sadly it has often seemed easier to reach a humbled unbeliever who is searching for the truth than a believer who is convinced they don't need to mature any. Nevertheless I know assuredly that my ministry is not with unbelievers.

Even this bad experience for me has been an education and further insight into how the enemy works, which will always be a boon to my ministry of calling out his lies and how he operates.

It is sobering if useful to know in advance that I am likely to encounter more such 'believers' in the future convinced of their own rightness in all things.

Thanks again my friend! You can publish these ones.
p.s.
Today __ sent me an anti-Jewish video from an Instagram account with a vile name. This account (unsurprisingly) had the most vile anti-Jewish and blasphemous content I have seen in a long while. It is quite possible that __ just forwarded on this video without seeing the far worse content on there but the video __ sent me said I was a 'brainwashed Christian for supporting Israel'.

I have given __ a rebuke but tried to do so as loving as possible. __ tried to send it to my Instagram account which I am just trying to use for business so __ was trying to reach me in a way I didn't want (like how some people sometimes contact you at your work email). To be honest I was alarmed __ did this as it made me feel as though I was being stalked.

Anyway I did pray for __ first and after and pointed out, from the influence of your ministry, that getting involved in politics is a mistake but Anti-Semitism is also very dangerous to embrace as a Christian. I tried then to point out the need to get red hot in faith under a real Bible teaching ministry soon as the Tribulation is round the corner and there is no pre-trib rapture.

I also wrote (as honest and as heartfelt as possible) that when I reached out as a Christian, I was really joyful and happy to fellowship but was upset to find __ depressed, bitter and doubtful about faith and feeling rebellious against God.

I also pointed out that the church __ is a member of, the pastor had let in wolves who were teaching the congregation how to do mediumship (DASEL) and that he didn't care.

I gave __ all of my concerns all in one message. I did this because I assume that our fellowship (if that is what this even is) will be ending. __ replied quite quickly after but I am not looking today or even tomorrow. I asked __ to think over all I said and to prayerfully take this to the Lord and to check out if I have said anything unbiblical like a Berean would. I doubt __ did all that within an hour of reading my message so I suppose the reply is just to get me hooked into the argument to keep on debating and wrestling. The fact that __ messaged back so quickly meant that __ didn't consider what I wrote at all. I spent a long time writing that message and prayed over it several times. I know that __'s reply did not have the same thoughtful or prayerful consideration.

I was so looking forward to having face to face fellowship but it isn't fellowship if a believer/interested isn't really in the truth.

In Jesus,
Response #10:
Re: "The fact that __ messaged back so quickly meant that __ didn't consider what I wrote at all." Yes – I get this a LOT, often after laboring over a response for a good long time (not to mention the time it took to put up the materials I link to)! 

Yes, you are absolutely right . . . about all of this. There are times to just let it go. And some individuals like this won't let you let it go unless you take a hard line. That is often difficult to do because, of course, you DO want to help them. But it is typical of the evil one to use such stalking horses to monopolize your time to no particular good end. Unless what you are writing and doing can be / will be beneficial to others down the road, cutting one's loses and moving on is the best way to go at some point. When a person makes it clear to me that they are completed caught up in lies – as this response you got seems to do – with no intention of really letting me help them extricate themselves, then the only point is to implicate me (no thank you).

It's a valuable lesson to learn. Applying it by setting good boundaries and getting that right most of the time takes experience. But you are well on the way!

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #11:
Thanks Bob,

Sadly I have had to block __ and will now move on. It grieves me to do such a thing as I have known __ for a really long time, long before I became a believer, from when I lived in London but it has become abusive and it was pulling me down.

It's probably in part that __ thinks __ 'knows me' so probably won't believe a person can be born again, __ may well not be born again as __ is a member of the Church of England and I know that they keep their members away from the Gospel but keep them locked up in the belief of institutional security. That was why __ chose to trust __ Vicar no matter what as __ didn't really see any other alternative. 

As you have said before, if someone was a genuine believer looking for the Lord then they wouldn't stay in a mainline church visible organisation if they wanted to get closer to the truth, certainly not for decades as __ has done.

It seems the church __ is in sometimes throws out to them all something that seems a little bit 'more' to stop them from getting bored from the lack of teaching there so every now and again they get someone to come in from outside to boost interest, such as the Alpha course or this DASEL course than __ wanted to shove on me.

I have also said before that __'s mother may have died an unbeliever whilst being a member of this church. __ has said as much that __ mother 'didn't exactly grasp who Jesus was'. That leapt out to me as a red flag that __ possibly refused to accept Jesus as her __ Saviour. Sadly __'s love and loyalty towards __ mother seemed to exceed the love __ has for the Lord and the truth.

__ seemed caught in anger and resentment that God didn't bend the rules for salvation for __ mother. __ blamed God for the possibility that __ mother wasn't saved rather than accepting that maybe __ mother knew how to be saved but refused to accept it, as __ may have had __ own ideas how to be saved. Sadly it seems that __ is going in the exact same direction, __ wants to be saved __ own way and probably the same way __ mother thought. There is a deep misplaced loyalty here and a belief that doing so will bring __ back to __ mother again after death.

As a person whose both parents (and whole family) reject the Gospel, I can attest that it is uniquely painful to suffer this burden knowing they many never accept Jesus Christ. In truth though, I do love the Lord more as I am commanded to do so and because of that love and trust in Him, I know that all will be for the best in the end. I know that if I had made an idol of my parents then I could've easily felt the same way as __ does. 

Because I have suffered forms of abuse and neglect at the hands of my family that they have never taken responsibility for, I have been prevented from ever idolising my parents or seeing them as other as they really are. In this regard, the Lord has always given me a degree of separation from my family from a self preservation standpoint which has worked to the good in the long run spiritually for me.

Due to this, what they meant for evil, the Lord has used for good. It means that I have a more mature view now about whether a person chooses to be saved or not. It is still painful when loved ones refuse the Lord but I know the Lord and people well enough now to know the real situation. I know the Lord's love and His very great sacrifice for our sins. I know the character of our Father and what He has sacrificed too through His son. So I have it the right and Godly way around. The onus is on us to choose Him and only a truly wicked and ungrateful person would choose to refuse to accept so amazing a salvation. In a sense anyone who dies in their sins are truly going the devil's way and choosing rebellion over being restored to God. They are choosing to worship themselves just as Satan has done.

No matter how close the relationship and how much I love them, I can't accept that. I can't accept that level of disregard and ingratitude towards the Lord that I love.

You can publish this one if you think it will help others.

What you wrote about recognising the pattern of people writing immediately back to you (without really considering what you were ministering to them or the scriptures you use to back up your positions) well I learned that firstly from your ministry. As well as all the wonderful Bible teaching on your site, I also have learned a lot from how you respond to people who write to you. In recent years I have really been focusing on it, maybe in the knowledge that I will need to hone these skills in my own ministry.

So I did notice how people skim read your response and then give you the rest of their pre-prepared argument that took no account of the fact that you had actually moved the discussion on. I realise that when a person continually does this then they are merely kicking their own can further and further down their own particular road and want you to follow them and chase them for that can. I am in no doubt that the enemy is using such people to lure mature believers to abandon or to doubt their own ministries.

Really what they are doing is rejecting the authority of the ministry they are challenging. As this authority belongs to God Himself then really this is who they are challenging through us.

The best way to describe such people is 'time wasters'. They could easily walk away and find another ministry or if they are certain they are being called themselves, to start one of their own.
Instead they badger away at pre-existing ministries because study and spiritual maturity and ministry does take dedicated hard work and prioritising the Lord and the truth in our lives. These people don't want to do that and make that effort. Ironically they can even fool themselves that they are doing 'God's work' by tearing down another person's ministry when really they are being used by the devil and serving their own appetites.

I am getting stronger about these things and your ministry has strengthened me particularly in this regard to responding to these types of people. It can be daunting going forward towards ministry knowing there will be a lot of time wasters and naysayers who will be sent to us to do the enemy's bidding. Of course though, nothing escapes God and His plan and His special care and superintendence of us. He knew all these things would happen before time existed so we now see that this too is part of His plan.

These people can chip away at our confidence to minister but the Spirit behind all true ministries is the Holy Spirit so although we may sometimes feel weak in the flesh by all these tests, challenges, rebuttals and mockeries...we know that authority comes from God and teaching through the Spirit so really these challenges are not really about us at all but a conduit used by the enemy to tackle God's authority over us and our ministries. With this in mind I know I am to be professional about all this and not to take it personally. It does certainly feels personal at times but really the challenge is towards God directly and the truth. Humans can be pawns for the enemy to challenge us from sticking to the truth.

The enemy gets payoff from this multiple ways: he gets his messenger to double down on a false position and harden their heart to the truth, gets us to doubt our ministries and lose confidence in undertaking them in the hope we will stop working on them whilst maintaining his direct challenge to God's authority. In a sense we are caught up in the middle of this with us on God's side fighting the good fight with the naysayer being deployed by the enemy.

It is sobering to know that the enemy can use us so that we always need to check we are in the faith and what we are saying through ministry can be backed by scripture and is truly led by the Spirit.

I really appreciate your friendship, fellowship and ministry over the years. It is almost coming up to a decade now that I have been following Ichthys. Thanks from the bottom of my heart, I am grateful for you my friend.

In Jesus, who is the truth, the light and the way,
Response #11:
Re: "it has become abusive". That is definitely a "stop point", regardless of other considerations.

Re: "The onus is on us to choose Him". Indeed. God has done EVERYTHING for us in sacrificing Jesus Christ for our sins. The cross is what "all this" is all about. Everything else is merely context for our decision, for the confirmation of our decision, for the confirmation of our response to Him for what He has done for us, one way or the other.

It's important to remember that God knows us far better than we know ourselves. And if we are honest with ourselves, even a bit, we do recognize where and when we have been less than responsive to Him – and none of us is perfect in this regard. 

That being the case, however, we need to keep in mind that He also knows every unbeliever, exactly what they were thinking and choosing from the very start of their lives, and exactly how they would react to any and all circumstances with which they might have been presented. So it is absolutely the case that condemnation is self-selected. I am convinced that no unbeliever would ever choose to be saved at the price of using their image of God to bow the knee to the real God, absent being forced to do so, not even given a thousand lifetimes of varied circumstances. God knows and sees this to a depth we cannot even limn. We can only go by what we can see from our limited perspective in the case of any given unbeliever. 

So you are right. The Spirit is the One who moves these things, and only for those willing to be moved. We are merely His instruments, to the extent that we put ourselves in His hands, willing to be used by Him. Correctly understood, this is a liberating perspective, because "we" don't have to worry about anything. "We" just need to put ourselves at the Lord's disposal day by day.

So I also would not worry about the enemy. We can't do anything about what is going on in the invisible realm of spiritual warfare any more than we could on a visible battlefield – except to keep fighting the fight (link).

I'm very glad you found Ichthys too, my friend! 

Keeping you in my daily prayers.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #12:
Hello Dr Luginbill,

Just a short note on earthquakes.

In the past 24 hours, United States has had 229 quakes of magnitudes up to 4.7:

1 quake above magnitude 4
8 quakes between magnitude 3 and 4
25 quakes between magnitude 2 and 3
195 quakes below magnitude 2 that people normally don't feel.

There are many more than what is displayed here.

I will have to say that, I believe that 95% of the people in the world do not even know what is about to take place all over the world.

Matthew 24 coming alive, with many events already taking place:

1. Those coming in the name of Jesus, misleading many.
2. Wars and rumors of wars.
3. Nation rising against nation.
4. False prophets.

But, you know all about these things that are taking place.

Just thought I would say Hi again.

I could never thank God and you, for the wonderful teachings I have studied, so much excellent information, but I have not even begun to start, even though I have know you and your Website for around 10 years.

May God truly and quickly bless you and the work that you are doing for Him.

Love in Jesus,

Your friend,
Response #12:
Thanks for this. Just one more reason I avoid the news (LOL). 

Louisville has been quake free lately (at least as far as I've heard or felt), but we do live right on the New Madrid fault, the origin of the worst earthquake the US has ever had. So stay tuned! You're pretty close to it as well, I think.

Yes, things do appear to be "ramping up". No one really wants to go through the Tribulation (one of the things that explains the resilience of the clearly incorrect pre-Trib rapture false teaching), but at least once it starts, we'll have a definite countdown for how much time is left until that most blessed day of our Lord's return. And we won't have to read the news about earthquakes et al. to know it's begun.
Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake (i.e., felt and heard worldwide).
Revelation 8:5 NKJV
In Jesus,

Bob L.
p.s., what about your daughter's knee?
Question #13:
She has to have a total knee replacement, but she has an excellent Doctor, and you know Him.

And I know Him also.

Thanks for the response.

On Rev. 8:5, people won't know what hit them, especially the pre-tribers. Sad to say.

Blessings to you,

Your friend, 
Response #13:
Thanks for the reassurance.

Re: "people won't know what hit them, especially the pre-tribers". But I'm hopeful that once it DOES hit them they will wake up fast. If and when that happens, there will be some work for us to do in helping our brothers and sisters "get up to speed".

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #14:
Greetings brother Bob,

I'm sure you must have an article about Rev. 3:10. Could you please send me the site for it. thanks.
Response #14:
The main coverage on this verse is in CT 2A: The Seven Churches (here's the direct link to "Philadelphia").
If you mean refutation of pre-Tribbers' adoption of this verse to prove a "rapture", you will find those sorts of things in various email responses dealing with the subject generally. 

Here's one link to where the passage is directly confronted:  in Eschatology Issues XXVIII

And here's a selection of other links (and these will lead to many others):
The 'Rapture' and other Eschatological Issues
Eschatology Issues XXIV: the 'Rapture' et al.
The pre-Trib 'Rapture': so called 'imminence' and other false proofs refuted
Dangers of the Pre-Trib Rapture False Teaching
When is the Rapture?
Parousia
The Origin and the Danger of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture Theory
No Rapture
Three False Doctrines that Threaten Faith
Misplaced Faith in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #15:
OK, thanks brother Bob. I read through the site you listed, and others, but couldn't find what the hour of trial is. If it's there, and I missed it my bad, Otherwise, in just a few words could you share with me what you think it is. Thanks.
Response #15:
Re: The "hour of trial". Here's a quote from CT 2A:
The previous era of the reformers, that of Philadelphia, was not, as we have pointed out, perfect, but their "little power" with all its kinks and blemishes was sufficient to earn Christ's praise, and to vouchsafe for them deliverance from the coming "great hour of testing", the Tribulation (Rev.3:10). 
I've never even considered "the hour of testing which is about to come upon the entire inhabited world to put the inhabitants of the world to the test" (Rev.3:10) to be anything else other than the Tribulation. The era of Philadelphia is over so that those believers of the past were in fact delivered from that "hour". Not so our era, the era of Laodicea. 

The problem with rapture adherents is that they fail to note that the seven churches represent seven consecutive historical eras and that the previous one is now "in the books". Then, they wrongly extrapolate from Philadelphia being promised to be kept "from the hour of trial" to mean . . . (??!!) that there is a pre-Trib rapture of the Church? That is a logical jump of four or five steps from anything that the text actually says. 

Even if it were the case that these seven churches were not referring to eras (they are), then in that hypothetical would we have a partial rapture with only those who have "kept My command to persevere in Me" being raptured. And if this means simply "believers", what about the other six churches, most of which do not come in for the praise Philadelphia receives? 

Typical of rapture defenses, those who use this passage to shore up their shaky position merely take what they think might be useful out of any context and apply it willy-nilly to their pet false doctrine.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #16:
Thanks brother Bob,

You're the best....make that second best 
Response #16:
re: "second best" – I'll take it!
Question #17:
Greetings Robert,

Thanks for getting back. There's no question that there's going to be at least a 31/2 year great tribulation. Scripture doesn't actually record a seven year tribulation. But here's what I' trying to figure out. If the hour of trial is the "tribulation," I wonder why John didn’t use the Greek “thlipsis,” which means tribulation. Instead, he used “pierasmos” which means, “An experiment, attempt, proving, the trial of man's fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy (Thayer’s #5387). That doesn’t sound like “tribulation.” 

So it seems to me that perhaps the hour of trial is not so much a "seven year tribulation," per se, but the hour of testing and trying men’s souls DURING it through the various judgments. Maybe that's splitting hairs. But church saints will still be persecuted, imprisoned, tortured and martyred (Rev. 12:11, 13:7,10, 14:12). Teaching that the church won't go through it will be a disaster, resulting in many falling away (Mt. 24:10, 1 Tim. 4:1). I guess that's the apostasy. Instead of looking up for an "any moment" rapture, the church should be preparing to go through the tribulation. It's not that far away.

If being kept from the hour of trial is a future rapture, then according to pretrib reckoning there should have been a first century rapture.

Blessing my friend,
Response #17:
Sorry for the delay. Saturday is "posting day" and I rarely have time to answer emails until the following Sunday.

Re: "Scripture doesn't actually record a seven year tribulation." That's not actually the case in the sense that scripture does make it very clear that the Tribulation is seven years long. 

Daniel 9:24 tells us that there are "seventy weeks" of years remaining for the Jewish people, but the following three verses make it clear that prior to the Tribulation only sixty nine weeks will be expended – leaving one week of years to come, namely, the seven years of the Tribulation. Notice too that Daniel 9:27 has antichrist making a covenant/treaty for the "seven years" and then abrogating it "in the middle of the week" (= middle of the seven year Tribulation). 

We have ample evidence throughout scripture and particularly in the Book of Revelation to be assured that this is the middle of the Tribulation for that is when the beast takes up residence in the temple and begins his horrible world rule (e.g., 2Thes.2:1-6), requiring the mark to buy and sell (and this doesn't even start until Revelation 13, also half way through the seven years). 

Further, we know that the two witnesses are on the scene for 42 months (Rev.11:2), but that the Great Tribulation which follows also lasts for 42 months, AKA "times, time and half a time" (all equaling three and a half years which, doubled, is seven year; see the link). So while it might not be put in those terms exactly (i.e., there is no verse that says explicitly, "the Tribulation will last seven years"), that is, after all, typical of how the Bible expresses itself. There's no "Trinity" in the Bible either – in terms of that word, but there is no doubt that it is a true doctrine.

In terms of "testing" versus "tribulation", again, scripture never binds itself to specific terminology in the way that textbooks or Ph.D. dissertations might do. For example, the Bible doesn't use the term "second advent" but it is a useful term: when Paul says in Philippians 3:20 that "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ" we understand that it is indeed the second advent which we are awaiting (our Lord's return, by whatever name). 

So the fact that the Bible here says "hour of testing", that really can't be used to dismiss the idea that the Tribulation is meant – especially since the book of Revelation is essentially about the Tribulation and our Lord's return at the end of it. This term ("trial" / peirasmos) calls our attention to the test of faith that the Tribulation will bring about rather than to the suffering itself signified by the word "Tribulation" (thlipsis), and this is probably why John was led to use it at Revelation 3:10.

Good points here about the pre-Tribbers too!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #18:
Thanks

Good stuff, as usual. My only point was that trial (pierasmos) doesn't mean tribulation (thlipsis). IOW, I see God testing the lost during the tribulation with the purpose of getting people to repent and turn to him through the different judgments of the tribulation period. IOW, two separate entities operating at the same time. Perhaps like a father spanking his child. The spanking is the tribulation where the intent of it is to bring reform through that painful hour of trial. Maybe I'm still splitting hairs:)

Thanks again, god bless
Response #18:
It's a good point: during the Tribulation I am confident that the experience will indeed turn a lot of believers around who otherwise would just keep drifting through life in the Laodicean fashion. And how will they recover? Only through the truth. All the more reason for us who can see the storm coming to prepare not only for our own sake but also to be ready to serve the Lord in filling in the gaps for our at this point still lukewarm brothers and sisters in Christ.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #19:
Hi Mr. Luginbill,

My family and I are planning to start studying the Bible with my grandparents, going through a book of the Bible at a time. We're planning to start with the minor prophets, I think the first one we are doing is Hosea. Two questions:

1) I want to be prepared as we go in to the study, is there a specific way you would recommend studying the minor prophets? I confess that I don't understand the Old Testament as much as I would like and I want to know what the truth is beforehand so I'm not guessing. I still don't always know exactly what to think when people say things, I'm not always sure if they are right or not, and I want to interpret the Scripture accurately. Aside from looking at the translation page on Ichthys and seeing what you have, how can I approach this?

2) We were all having a discussion today on the timeline after the Tribulation, and we got on the topic of pre, mid or post Tribulation resurrection of the church (or a rapture). I'm trying to prepare for going through the Tribulation but my grandparents seem to think we're going to be raptured. My grandpa in particular seems to get his confidence of this from a film he saw (which I watched with them one time) called Before the Wrath. Do you know much about this film?

Here's a quote from their website:

"While everyone has been debating "when" this event is to happen, we've forgotten to ask "why" it does, and the answer could be the greatest theological discovery of our time."

If I understand, they are saying that Jesus told His disciples about when He would "catch away" His bride and something about that is connected to a traditional Galilean wedding ceremony?

Is it true that all the disciples were Galileans? Would Jesus have used the traditional Galilean wedding ceremony as a "foreshadowing" of His returning for His bride? I'm not even sure how to write you this question or exactly how to phrase it. I agree with your interpretation of Scripture and I tried to bring up the point that we as believers might need to remain to help other believers, but they said, "it's too late".

Is the Tribulation a "last call" for people to repent and turn to Jesus? What is the primary purpose? I need to study this topic more but it's hard for me (as you know) but I do think it's important especially living in this time. Add to that all the unrest with Israel and the surrounding nations right now and it's hard for me to sort it all out. There are so many people saying so many things but I just want to know what the Bible actually says. I don't completely understand the relationship with the Biblical Israel and the modern day Israel and how it all fits together on our current day.

Sorry for this rambling message - I hope it makes some sense to you. Gonna hop on the forum meeting now.

Respectfully,
Response #19:
Sounds fun!

On prep, you could do worse than reading the introductory parts of Coming Tribulation part 1 (link);  these deal with hermeneutic/interpretative issues. You could also do worse than getting a copy of Unger's Old Testament Commentary (volume 2 covers the prophets). It's not perfect (what commentary is?), but he generally gives good insights and I rarely find him dead wrong about things.

On the timeline of the Tribulation and afterwards, you are correct that this is NO pre (or mid) "rapture". There is no scripture which ties the resurrection to anything but our Lord's return at the second advent following the Tribulation (e.g., Matt.24:20-31). That return is what we are told to look forward to throughout the New Testament (not some prior release that will obviate our need to endure the Tribulation). The information on this at Ichthys is voluminous (here's one recent link: The 'Rapture' and other Eschatological Issues); please do get back to me if you're having trouble finding anything.

It's not hard to understand why people want to avoid the Tribulation, so the "feel good" idea that we might be spared it is very tempting. It just happens to be completely wrong and without any biblical support. Not doubt that is precisely why this nonsensical "snatch away the bride" argument is being put out there. That is typical of rapture defenses. Weird ideas which aren't in the Bible. And why? Because there aren't any passages in scripture which positively teach it (because it's a false doctrine), and therefore proponents have to dredge up whatever nonsensical "support" they think they can find using all manner of faulty logic to try and prove their point.

Trust me. No one knows about these "Galilean customs". What are their sources? They don't exist. But first please show us where it says Jesus is "snatching up His Bride before the Tribulation begins". I'm sure we'd remember that if we'd read it in the Bible.

As to the "why" of the Tribulation. There are many things we might say. First, it fulfills many prophesies. Second, it is the last offensive of the devil which the Lord completely defeats and thus offers the final refutation to the devil's claims of unfairness in his condemnation. Third, it is the great winnowing time where the wheat and the chaff will be separated as never before. Fourth, with the devil in control, it thus offers the greatest possible contrast between a universe run by him and the most glorious time in human history which follows, the thousand year reign of Christ, thus making it crystal clear who is good and who is evil and what is good and what is evil. Finally, it's an answer to prayer:
Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
Revelation 8:3-5 NKJV
Obviously, we are not looking forward to those dark seven years, but we do pray every day for "Thy Kingdom Come!" and "Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven", and these things cannot happen without the Tribulation happening first, during which time evil and those who follow evil will be entirely exposed and judged. We can take solace in that and rejoice in that . . . even if we have to suffer for a little while as it is going on.

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #20:
Hi Mr. Luginbill,

Thank you for the guidance. I ordered a copy of Unger's Old Testament Commentary.

I confess I'm not entirely sure what that particular film is saying/implying - I know that it swayed __ more towards a Pre-Tribulation rapture (although __ admits __ has wavered between the two and isn't dogmatic one way or the other).

Re: Weird ideas which aren't in the Bible. Trust me. No one knows about these "Galilean customs". What are their sources? They don't exist.

If these Galilean wedding customs had any ties to the Bible, then wouldn't the Bible give us indication? Of course Jesus used parables and not everything mentioned in the Bible (like movies for example since they didn't even exist), but the truth of God's Word is totally able to apply to our modern situations since the Holy Spirit knows all. I don't know much about the ancient world or their customs. I was talking with my brother and he was saying that these people who made the movie should state what they found and where they found it, that the paragraphs on their site sounded pretty pseudo-sciency without evidence to prove their position.

Were the disciples all Galileans and does that have any significance?

How do we know these wedding traditions didn't exist? (I ask that you forgive my ignorance, I do not question what you have told me, I just don't know anything about these things).

How much is the timeline of the resurrection of the church and the Tribulation going to affect our study of the minor prophets? I'm not sure I am able to spot a wrong interpretation of prophecy. I just want to trust in the right thing and not a wrong thing....

Also I appreciate the explanation of the "why". I do struggle sometimes with feeling afraid when I think that the Tribulation might be just a little way off. I know you tell people not to be afraid, that God will protect us, that nothing can happen to us that God has not allowed, and that God will only allow things for our good (even if it's awful going through it). I suppose the afraid is just the enemy wanting me to worry and have a lack of trust in God.

Is it true that if the Bible says something, we need to know that and interpret it correctly. If the Bible doesn't say it or imply it in a way that we can know is from the Holy Spirit, then any new "discoveries" or "rediscoveries" of ancient customs don't matter, since God has given us a complete Bible...is that correct?

Respectfully,
Response #20:
Re: films. I don't believe I've ever seen a movie that didn't play fast and loose with the truth. Movies represent things dramatically and are for that very reason very poor models for anything in life, let alone biblical doctrine. 

For example, no one in real life talks with the same level of emotion and "acting presence" that one finds in the movies. If a person tried to "act" the way actors do, they would soon be labeled as very odd or even mentally ill. The same thing goes for any facts represented in film. We all are conditioned to "suspend disbelief" when watching any dramatic performance in any venue. Fiction is entertaining precisely because it is different from reality even though it has one foot in reality. When it comes to the truth, I scrupulously avoid "Bible movies" of any sort because I don't want any false seeds planted in my heart. Even if we know that the things represented are falsehoods to some degree, even if that degree were only one percent, that would be far too much for my taste when it comes to scripture (and in fact the percentage is generally much higher than that). 

Case in point is the representation you provide here and in the previous email. There is no statement such as "scripture Y says X and therefore means Z". That is something we could deal with. We could read scripture Y and see if it does actually say X (in the Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic), and then we could discuss whether or not it means Z. But a movie presents ideas visually as being true. For pure fiction, a sci-fi movie for example, we know very well that it is all made-up and so have our defenses up against ACTUALLY believing such things real or even possible. But a Bible movie, and, worse, a supposedly doctrinal movie, "teaches us things" usually without at the same time giving us any opportunity to question the validity of what is being taught. And even if we "know better" or are skeptical based upon what we do know, because it is entertaining and presented visually, we are much more likely to be persuaded to believe what it says even though otherwise we might want to "search the scriptures to see if it is so" (Acts 17:11). Q.E.D.

Re: "If these Galilean wedding customs had any ties to the Bible, then wouldn't the Bible give us indication?" That is an excellent point. If understanding a particular passage required knowing some background information about the culture, then, if not in the Bible itself we could expect the necessary material to exist outside of it (as is the case for example with necessary details about the Roman empire). 

More to the point is that before we even get to asking this question we should note that there would first have to be an actual verse or passage that REQUIRED such information in order to render a proper interpretation. I haven't heard what that passage is. Were there weddings in Galilee? By all means. There were weddings throughout the ancient world, and we do know some things about them and we can possible extrapolate from later traditions how things may have worked in a given place at a given time as a general rule. But the real question is, why would we wish to do so in the context of the resurrection? 

We know that we the Church are Christ's Bride and that the main take-away is His love for us and the closeness of the relationship between us now and for all eternity. But nothing in that blessed, biblical analogy begs the question of WHEN the resurrection should take place. Why would it? Answer: since there is in fact NO Bible verse which teaches a pre-Trib rapture, proponents of that false doctrine have to go to great and illogical lengths to search for any tenuous (supposed) support they can find. And it always results in nutty arguments like this one. 

What, because bride and groom go off on a honeymoon after the wedding, therefore there is a pre-Trib rapture? Jesus does come to claim His Bride, us, the Church, but what in this supposed custom indicates the timing of that return? Answer: nothing whatsoever. But if I put it in a movie with nice graphics and ethereal music, then I can assert that as a fact and slip it by or even persuade people to accept it . . . because they want to. The pre-Trib rapture is a notoriously "feel good" false doctrine. We would ALL be happy if it were true (just as we'd all be happy if those emails telling us someone is about to give us a lot of money were true). One big problem: it is NOT true. And the Bible gives no validation to that falsehood anywhere or in any way.

Re: "How much is the timeline of the resurrection of the church and the Tribulation going to affect our study of the minor prophets?" That is book-specific. Some of the so-called minor prophets (so called because they are smaller, the literal meaning of the Latin minor, not because they are less important) do have eschatological information (see the link), but if you are asking me if a home Bible study of them is possible without getting into a brouhaha over this issue, probably so.

Re: "Is it true that if the Bible says something, we need to know that and interpret it correctly. If the Bible doesn't say it or imply it in a way that we can know is from the Holy Spirit, then any new "discoveries" or "rediscoveries" of ancient customs don't matter, since God has given us a complete Bible...is that correct?" Absolutely! A good synopsis on your part.

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #21:
Hi Mr. Luginbill,

I know we have talked about fiction prior to this, but what you have said here makes me think even more. Truth is the rock of everything good and if a "Christian" song or movie doesn't contain truth or distorts the truth then it's not going to help much. I "knew" this but now I think I see it more.

The Bible (along with the aid of the Holy Spirit and in the case of pastors, special gifting) is sufficient to interpret itself, correct? The Bible, when interpreted correctly, will help interpret itself - like, comparing passages to get the overall truth of a doctrine as well as specifics. If we gain insight from external sources, like with the Roman empire, that is just another tool to shed light on something (provided the sources are accurate). I would think the Bible stands alone though - we don't need external sources to interpret it when it comes to how we know/interpret the truth contained?

Re: More to the point is that before we even get to asking this question we
should note that there would first have to be an actual verse or passage that REQUIRED such information in order to render a proper interpretation.

I'm glad this is how you put it, that makes me think in a different perspective.

Re: our Bible study of the minor prophets. I'm not concerned about getting into an argument - I have been blessed with a good, Christian family - I'm just concerned about how to interpret passages that are talking about End Times. If we have different views on the Tribulation and when the resurrection occurs, that is going to affect how we talk about things and interpret passages. Should I just set anything I'm questioning aside and focus on what I am confident is true?

Hope you are well, sir!

Respectfully,
Response #21:
Re: "The Bible (along with the aid of the Holy Spirit and in the case of pastors, special gifting) is sufficient to interpret itself, correct?" Good Bible teaching requires a lot of things. First, as you mention, the gift of pastor-teacher and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. But pastor-teacher's aren't given "all the tools" automatically. 

Learning Greek and Hebrew (and Aramaic) takes a lot of time and effort, especially if one wants to develop a sufficient depth of facility with these languages to actually understand them as such (as opposed to a superficial grasp which may sound and look good but really doesn't cut it). 

There is also theology, or, better put, understanding and knowing the doctrines of scripture to a deep degree. I would be a bad translator and a worse interpreter of Euclid's "Elements", not because I don't know Greek well but because math isn't my forte. And the theology one needs to know is not just traditional theology but what I would call "actual" theology, that is, what scripture actually teaches understood in a doctrinally systematic way (Bible Basics at Ichthys seeks to provide that). Exegesis, "teaching what a passage means", after all, requires a firm grasp of the subject matter one is explaining and the truths that underlie it (i.e., "actual theology"). 

Finally, there is value in understanding the cultures of the ancient Near East and especially of the Greek and Roman worlds. If a person doesn't know what a centurion is, for example, the passages in scripture which speak of them won't be as clear, and this is true with lots of things in the gospels and Acts (not to mention all of the other books of the Bible). 

My beef with the "Galilean wedding customs" argument is not that I'm against knowing all we can know about the culture of Palestine and Judea (and the Roman empire) in the first century. No, I'm very much against misusing this principle by exploiting the fact that most believers know little about these things and can therefore be easily misled by the teacher claiming things which are actually irrelevant and either untrue or unknowable . . . especially when as in this instance they do not apply. We do happen to know quite a lot about the process of petitioning minor officials in Egypt during this time frame from many papyri that have survived. But none of that is particularly helpful for directly illuminating any biblical passage I know of. So I would have a problem with some teacher going on at length about some of these records and then claim (after impressing his audience), that THEREFORE "my pet false doctrine is true". That is what I see happening in this case we've been discussing.

Re: your Bible study. OK, thanks for explaining. It depends on what you're trying to accomplish. The prophets are often difficult to interpret for many reasons. For one thing, most Hebrew prophecy is in poetry and for that reason (i.e., the different and more obscure language poetry tends to use) there are myriad cases where the exact text and the precise meaning are not that clear. Comparing versions would be good to do to see how this is so. Also, the hermeneutics of interpreting Hebrew prophecy are not obvious. In fact, not many people (even scholars) really understand "the rules". The link I gave you to the discussion of this in CT 1 will give the gist. Clearly, there is much in any book of scripture that is pretty obvious in its meaning without needing to know Hebrew or "the rules of interpretation" etc. This why we read the Bible! And the more we grow and the more we know, the more clear scripture becomes to us as we read it. 

Re: "Should I just set anything I'm questioning aside and focus on what I am confident is true?". Sounds like a good plan!

Anyway, prayers for your Bible study – and for all your other concerns, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #22:
Hi Mr. Luginbill,

Thank you for explaining interpretation. I hope that I didn't sound disrespectful, like I was implying it was simple - I so appreciate the good Bible study materials you have made available.

So if I am understanding you correctly, the issue is not "is this Galilean wedding custom an actual tradition", it's more of, "this wedding tradition doesn't apply to translating/interpreting the Bible".

On the Bible study, I suppose what we are trying to accomplish is understanding what the Bible says and discussing it. None of us are pastor-teachers (and actually most of us are women). So we have to depend on someone else when we don't understand something. And I think there is too much misinterpretation/misapplication on the internet on rely on that. How do I know who to trust when I don't know much about what we are studying?

When you say, "there is much in an book of scripture that is pretty obvious in its meaning without needing to know Hebrew or "the rules of interpretation" etc. This why we read the Bible! And the more we grow and the more we know, the more clear scripture becomes to us as we read it." I just don't know much about certain parts of the Old Testament and so I am hesitant, especially in prophecy.

Thank you for helping me understand all this.

Respectfully,
Response #22:
No worries – no offense taken at all!

Re: "this wedding tradition doesn't apply to translating/interpreting the Bible". If we know for certain that 1) a tradition or other cultural bit of information is true, it could be applicable; 2) but there are very strict rules of application. E.g., Roman soldiers were organized into cohorts of 600 (t.o.e., usually actually less). This term does appear in scripture. And the Church is also highly organized, an assembly (ekklesia, the Greek word for Church). But it would be a flight of fancy to say that for this reason all Christian churches should be so organized as well, not to exceed 600 and splitting up when they reach that number. The two things have nothing to do with each other because the Bible doesn't connect them (although fanciful interpreters might). Likewise, there were weddings in Galilee. That does not mean that the Church will be "raptured" before the Tribulation begins.

Re: Bible study. Good grasp of the issues. This is why I'm not crazy about group Bible studies. If we are reading our Bible's individually, we can seek answers for what we don't understand from trusted resources. A group Bible study without a spiritual leader tends to devolve into everyone giving their opinions. I'm not sure what that accomplishes. In other words, it's best to have a plan going in on just "how" things are going to be studied, approached, etc. I do think that many of the questions you've broached will be answered once you actually get into it, that is, it will become obvious pretty quickly what is working and what is not, what you wish you'd done and what you wish you hadn't, then adjustments can be made. Much of this depends on the group as well. I know they've got at least one person who can see what is spiritually beneficial and what is not, and what is likely to be true and what is clearly not (namely, you). So that is all to the good.

For specific questions, there are some resources at Ichthys.  The site is not set up for this but you can find translations and sometimes discussion of individual passages on the Translation Index (link).  There is also an expanded index which is helpful for this (link to the OT expanded index).  Sadly, it's not up to date.  You could always do a site search (link to how to do that), and of course there is the Subject Index for particular topics you have questions about.

Unger and a good study Bible (I recommend the Barker 1984 NIV) will be helpful in keeping things in the general vicinity of "correct".

Do let me know how it goes!

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #23:
Hi Mr. Luginbill,

Re: "wedding tradition". I think this issue is much more complicated than I originally suspected. If you would be so kind as to forgive my ignorance.

Ok, I think I understand what you are saying about "rules of application" (as much as someone with my limited knowledge can). Thank you for explaining that. This conversation has given me different perspectives to think over, in terms of the different ways something can be misused knowledge/a lie (and how we can spot them too).

Re: "group Bible studies without a spiritual leader". In truth, I have come more and more to share your view. I think meeting as a family was, in part, our desire to have more substance than we have been getting at the local church here. My family left "organized church" when I was growing up, and from the time I was around __, we used to home church, and go through a book of the Bible by chapter weekly (and the men would direct the study). We probably didn't have a pastor-teacher then either and I am sure there were things that we could have done better but I did get a good foundation of Scripture and in truth was spared a lot of outright false doctrine. We returned to the organized church about 3-4 years ago, and when I started studying on Ichthys, the gap has grown wider and it's hard to "go to church". I do like talking about the Bible with others but there are few people I can do that with and I step lightly when it comes to "church" people who I'm pretty sure don't agree (perhaps that is a fault of mine, I'm not sure, however not much good comes from arguing about things either). I have hope for our study in terms of it not just going the "opinion route", since I think we do want to know the truth as a group - my immediate family are pretty much in agreement with one another - especially with the major doctrines of the Bible). There are always those "controversial" topics like water baptism, pre-Trip rapture, and so on that my grandparents might go a little more towards "traditional understanding". All in all, I think it will turn out ok - I just want to understand the Bible and not guess.

Waiting on Unger's to arrive in the mail! I have an NIV 1984 Rainbow Study Bible (not sure if it's Barker, I will have to look at it). And thank you so much for all the links and direction on the site. I'm sure I will be visiting those throughout.

I think we're planning to start next week so I will let you know how it turns out.

Thank you so much for all your time and patience in explaining and discussing these things to me.

Respectfully,
Response #23:
I'm happy to help!

In terms of the sort of Bible study you're describing, another very valuable thing is to consult multiple English translations, especially when we're talking about the prophets. One site I very much like which is quite helpful in this regard is "Blue Letter Bible" (at the link in case you don't know about it).

Wishing you a good week ahead, my friend!

Keeping you in my prayers (and thanks much for yours).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
http://ichthys.com/