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Eschatology Issues CXXII

Question #1:
Doc...why would God slam us into the Tribulation when alot of us aren't even mentally or emotionally whole or healed enough to handle some of regular life's ordeals? If it's really so horrible, how can one fairly be expected to "endure to the end" under all that pressure and confusion under such a mentally ill state like many believers have? How is it fair for them to be damned and unavoidably deceived into apostasy when they probably stood no chance under the horrors of such a time?

I believe if God is fair and just, is consistent with the other parts of His nature, He would give some protection to these ones in this regard...does the Bible say so?
Response #1:
I have to disagree with your proposition. God only wants the best for believers, and we know what scripture says:
And we know that, for those who love God, He works everything together for good – [that is to say,] for those who have been called according to His plan.
Romans 8:28
The above plan for us and His superintendence of us in this world includes the Tribulation and whatever suffering we have to face in this life. There has never been a believer who was intent on following the Lord, intent on doing what He wants us to do, who was not tested, who did not suffer. But if we are following Him closely, we can have peace (Phil.4:4; Col.3:15), and we do have comfort even in the midst of the worst personal tribulations (2Cor.1:3-6), and that would/will include THE Tribulation. But if we are not having peace and joy now, then that is an indication that we are not walking as close to Him as we should and that we are not learning and believing and applying His truth as we should. 
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
John 16:33 NKJV
As to specific individuals with problems, the truth is that all believers have problems of one sort or another.
In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
2nd Timothy 3:12 NIV
Rest assured, the Lord knows each and everyone of His sheep – much better than we know ourselves. He is not going to let any of us be led astray, not, that is, if we are willing to keep listening to His voice and following Him (Jn.10:27-28). He is not going to let any of those who truly love Him be tested beyond what they can actually take (1Cor.10:13).
Fight the good fight of faith.
1st Timothy 6:12a
This life is a fight, for believers. Unbelievers may have it easy (Ps.73:3-5), but all believers are ever under the evil one's attacks. It may not be obvious how some who are genuinely living for Jesus Christ are being tested, but do not assume that they are not. It is a mistake to want to change our lot to that of anyone else. We all have our own fights to fight, our own races to run – and we are all rewarded according to how and what we do, how and what we are WILLING to do.
The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor.
1st Corinthians 3:8 NIV
Everything to come is wonderful. Set your eyes on the prize and on the Lord, and determine to fight a good fight for Him. You will take much more joy out of life that way, and be much happier with the result when you stand before Him on that great day.
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.
Colossians 3:1-2 NIV
In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #2:
Doc...I've been reading arguments from Leftists for their worldview and they seem to be too convincing, even the best debunks from all other sides seem to be shot down by them. If their worldview turns out to be true...how can anyone ever be happy? No one is innocent in their view, some races are automatically less guilty of almost everything regardless of offence, no one can be really happy because there's so much supposed injustice and there can never be enough justice...I would gladly end my life just to escape the madness.
Response #2:
"I've been reading arguments from Leftists for their worldview" . . . there's your problem right there. If we know things are deceptive or going to upset us, what is the point of subjecting ourselves to them? If it's not a condition of your employment somewhere, wouldn't you be better off using your time on Bible study?

"How can anyone ever be happy?" Believers can have joy in the Lord always – but that takes doing what is necessary: commitment to spiritual growth. After we have fought this fight for a while, it does get better if not easier, and we do find that if we cannot always be ecstatically joyful, we can always have peace in the Lord (see the link).
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
Colossians 3:15 NIV

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
Philippians 4:4 NIV
There's a lot more on all this in BB 6A: Peripateology (at the link).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #3:
Hi Bob,

I hope and pray all is well with you, on all fronts, in your neck of the woods. A lot of the annoyances do not seem to go away soon enough, but of course, if we endure, everything will be more than OK eventually. I really appreciate you and all my unseen friends that I have "met" in the emails, like "Tex", the folks across the Pond, and those in the far corners, with their individual takes on their situations, godly strategies, and prayer requests. Praying all will go well for them as well, as we are trudging along as best we can in each one's particular dilemma. So, hanging on to Jesus is all that is necessary for deliverance from "all this" come what may. May the Lord "increase all of our faith" to develop our endurance in it (Luke 17:5-6; James 1:2-4). We'll be more than OK.

In our neck of the woods, we're hanging in there as best we can, one day at a time. Whether it's the weather (breakdowns, with often enough some respite), or with our body dysfunctions (ongoing break downs, with hopefully some respite), vehicle dysfunction (it broke down yesterday....but fixed today, good as old....purring like a kitten), and the usual other wear and tear problems causing things to break down a bit more here and there (fill in the blanks...). But as they say, "you ain't seen nothing yet" i.e., more surprises and excitement will be coming ahead on the unseen horizon. So, fasten those seat belts to minimize the impact of the difficulties we're all unfortunately experiencing.....a long list, but fortunately, there is help from Him, when we ask in prayer (Matt. 21:22). So, "Keep on the Sunnyside of Life"! (it's a great lyric hymn written by Ada Blenkhorn in 1899).

For us believers, we all know how to cast our cares on Him for "Help"....my favorite prayer. (1 Peter 5:7). God knows what we need, and He's always there to help us if we ask, without a shadow of a doubt, through all our problems (Matt. 7:7-8). We know God is in control of it all, so we just need to keep that in mind, as we see it all happening right before our very fleshly as well as spiritual eyes (i.e., hopefully, seeing things from God's point of view). Even with all the ruckus, He has blessed us immensely every day with all we need, so I'm grateful to Him always, whatever situation we must face, with all those unknown possibilities. Our known (for sure) prospect is coming on the horizon. Can't wait for it all to be over and done with here, removed from those adverse possibilities, and to be finally realizing the prize and the great outcome, after our rescue by Him before or at His coming soon, whichever happens first. (Rev. 22:20; Rom. 2:28).....our blessed hope (Titus 2:13).

Right now, I've been waiting painfully and "patiently" (pun intended) to get that radiologically guided injection of steroids into that bum hip joint.... enduring a lot of uncomfortable broken sleep nights with hip and sciatic nerve pain.... then I'm slated afterwards for a bunch of PT rehab. Like they say "no pain-no gain"....I wonder if that applies in this case? I sure hope it works, and thank you and to the others for all the prayers.

Yesterday, __ had more bloodwork and another CT scan to assess the "new" situation, following her successful 5 hr. cancer surgery, chemo, et al. from last Summer. Here's the good news! The report came back in the evening, that the new "suspicious" cyst is now "stable" at 1.7 cm., actually smaller than the 1.8 cm. size from 3 months ago. She will need to have it checked again in another 3 months. More answered prayers, thank the Lord, and thank you all.

Down the trail, we all have a lot to look forward to, that is certain. Hope to hear "well done" for all of us at the award's banquet..... no rsvp for our invitation is needed for our Host to know if we are able to attend. It will be the finest supper and party ever! Everyone will be totally satisfied! 

It's Saturday....again. I'll be checking the emails tonight as always. Have a good one, Bob! Praying always on your behalf, and for all the others for all the best going forward.

Your friend in Jesus, 
Response #3:
First, I've updated the prayer list as requested (and of course I've got you guys on my personal one daily).

Thanks for the encouraging email, my friend. I love the "no RSVP" necessary for the "awards banquet". It is so important to keep ourselves focused on those glories to come, especially when the "here and now" gets tough. We all need to stay anchored to heaven home. That is where we really live. We're just waiting for the change of address. In the meantime, we make the most of the opportunities we have to honor the Lord and bring glory to His Name.

Thanks for your prayers and good words – and for your friendship in Jesus Christ.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #4:
Hi Bob,

Thanks for taking care of this request, and your ongoing prayers. You are in ours as well. When we get home we'll have no need for prayer requests, I suppose.....but definitely need all we can receive today, to get through our tough patches in the here and now. A cup of cold water (those prayers) given to us, only in the name of a disciple, will not lose his reward at the "awards banquet". Much better than the Heisman trophy, I'm sure. Eternity with God is the biggest trophy prize of all....with a wonderful "New Address", as you say. To God be the Glory! Have a good one, Bob!

Your friend in Jesus, 
Response #4:
My pleasure, my friend.

Yes indeed, I'm counting on prayers being a thing of the past. Even for believers "still in the body" during the Millennium, things will be different.
“It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear."
Isaiah 65:24 NKJV
We're all going to have great things to enjoy on the other side. And I'm particularly looking forward to that "new address" in New Jerusalem myself too!
(1) Do not let your heart be troubled. You believe in God [the Father] – believe also in Me. (2) There are many rooms in my Father's house. If there were not, I would have told you. For I am going in order to prepare a place for you. (3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I shall come again and take you to Myself, so that where I am, you may be also.
John 14:1-3
Meanwhile, thanks SO MUCH for those needful prayers! Keeping you guys in mine daily as well.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #5:
Jesus is indeed the only Way to eternal life...I regret letting myself fail so bad...why do so many people never want the truth? Do they truly love their sin that much? It would seem so. While apologetics are a great way to help believers struggling with doubts or unbelievers who are interested in the truth, no amount of logic, no matter how sound, will get through to people still rejecting God in their hearts. A denial of the resurrection that seems to be popular among atheists is insisting it was a mass hallucination(!?), as if hundreds of people experiencing the exact same hallucination at the same time isn't astronomically improbable to the point of absurdity, in fact at that point it might as well be the same thing as impossible. Anyway, thanks for all the advice so far, I'll try my best to resist the bad thoughts and such.
Response #5:
"Do they truly love their sin that much?" They love themselves so much that they ignore God, and as hardening happens they come to reject Him, and then even attempt to replace Him – in the same pattern of the devil. Arrogance always follows a familiar pattern: put self first; reject any other authority. There is a lot about this in BB 4B: Soteriology.

"no amount of logic, no matter how sound, will get through to people still rejecting God in their hearts" That is sadly absolutely true, and something many Christians have a hard time accepting. Many of us imagine that "if only" others would just hear the truth, they would change. But this life is all about choice – using the image of God we've been given to respond to Him . . . or not. Hearing the truth puts people on the spot and makes them choose. 

I've not heard of this new attack on the resurrection. Interesting. It would seem a lot easier just to deny the truth of the Bible; once you accept that the reports are accurate, as you say, it's not really feasible to explain it away. But there is no underestimating the power of the human heart to reject the truth and accept lies in its place – if that is what the person truly wants to do. We saw that most perspicuously in the Pharaoh of the exodus, but it will be very common during the Tribulation (2Thes.2:9-12). Ultimately, it's not possible to believe in Christ and not believe in the resurrection.
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1st Corinthians 15:12 NIV
Excellent perspectives in this email, my friend! You've made my day.

Keep up the good spiritual progress for Jesus Christ.

In Him,

Bob L.
Question #6:
Thanks Bob,

I will pray for your academic friend. I still find myself falling into the snare of focusing on mankind's blindness and sinfulness but then when I do it is all completely hopeless. It is our God and Saviour though in whom is the focus of our own salvation and hope for others. For Him NOTHING is impossible and He is faithful and true and loves us all very dearly even when we were His enemies at the cross, He willingly died for us and paid for our sins spiritually, suffered immensely in the dark beyond our comprehension. It is these truths and always these that we must cling onto even when it looks completely hopeless for those we care for.

God is good and God is love and His plan is perfect, and as you often say there is only one plan and it is His and we have all been accounted for in it. He has done everything and removed all obstacles for our salvation at a tremendous personal cost, we only have to say yes (or not say no) to His precious gift of eternal life. 

My favourite three words in the Bible that are personally so precious to me "It is finished!"

Amen!

Your friend in Jesus,
p.s. of course you know all this but I thought it good to encourage you and myself and it would be an encouragement for others. I was just thinking Bob, People seem to think the opposite to pride is shame but these are all of the flesh and therefore sinful. The spiritual opposite of pride is humility, being humble. I often think of Paul saying 'when I am weak, I am strong'. 2 Cor 12:12 An unbeliever would call that a paradox but it makes perfect sense through faith. As believers we should want what God wants for us and what glorifies His name. So going back to what Paul said, when we are weak then instead of relying on our own flesh (which leads to death) then we know that only God can do it, that God has the strength and His is the power and the glory. So whilst we may be weak in the flesh, we can at the same time be spiritually strong whilst we lean and wait on God and when we do this and look to Him for all things, we give Him glory and we are actually worshiping Him in Spirit and in truth. Though weak in the flesh, we are strong spiritually as 'His power is made perfect in our weakness'.

I was just reading this week's emails about the character of God. I was just thinking of how the gift of salvation, of God giving us His only Son, a gift of this magnitude cannot ever be repaid. There is nothing that we could ever give to God that could ever come close to this amazing gift. God gave us this amazing gift knowing that He would never be given anything back in return (but then we know that God doesn't need anything from us, does He.) So salvation truly is a free gift, given freely by God. With that in mind, seeing as we are to be all of one mind and have the mind of Christ (and Christ and God the father and the Holy Spirit are one). When I read this scripture this makes sense as it reflects the character of God. One who gives freely without anything being given back to Him. In Luke 14:12-14 Jesus says "Since they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.” So the banquet is a gift that cannot be repaid. Salvation is a gift that cannot be repaid.

It is interesting that a banquet is used more than once in a parable. We know that Jesus often says at the beginning of a parable 'the Kingdom of God is like...' and He uses the parable to explain a spiritual truth that cannot be easily grasped otherwise. So wouldn't that mean that the 'Kingdom of God is like a banquet that cannot be repaid'? Isn't the Kingdom of God a gift that cannot be repaid? The gift of salvation. So going back to the banquet parable. There is also the parable of the King's banquet for the wedding of his son. This is a parable about the wedding feast of the Lamb. Again Jesus says 'the Kingdom of God is like..' In this parable the original guests refuse to come and others are found who accept instead. So this is about the gift/banquet that can never be repaid and that some will refuse it whilst others will accept it. I thought that it was interesting that the 'Prodigal Son' was given a banquet by his father too. Again there was nothing that the prodigal son could do to repay his father's kindness and generosity. Again it was a gracious free gift given in love. So again and again and again, we see the character of God in these parables. We see His great gift that is given to us freely and it cannot be repaid. We must though accept this free gift in humility and when we do so then this gives glory to God. When we refuse this great free gift of salvation then we won't be attending the banquet and this is a great insult to God.

So when we put on Christ, we are to be of the same mind. We give to others with no hope of return and we are to give joyfully knowing that we will be rewarded generously for all that we do in the Spirit, that this is a true witness to our Lord and the Kingdom of God and that if they refuse what we give them then they are not refusing us but the one who we glorify and give witness to. When people refuse the Gospel, they are refusing the precious gift of God and the invitation to the wedding feast for His son. I write this as an encouragement to myself to keep going. I know that the work that the Lord has prepared for me is for believers. I have to say Bob that I have been shocked twice lately. It made sense from a hard hearted perspective that people would refuse to help other people. What I didn't expect was people who adamantly refuse to be helped even when the need is urgently apparent. It makes sense that this is the same people though who will also refuse God's help though and His generous gift.

As you have recently advised others, I have greatly reduced my expectations of others to an all time low. I don't really expect 'nothing from nobody' but I go to God about everything instead.
At the same time I am willing to keep giving with no hope of return and recognise that all my relationships now are one way streets whereby I give and they receive. Sometimes they are grateful and other times they are not. Other times and other people can only be described as hostile when I attempt to help them. These latter kind, I give them a very wide berth and leave them to the Lord in prayer. I just wanted to put some notes together in one place from your other replies to make it easier.

1) sometimes people dig their heels in when they think they are being criticised and we cannot help them (trying to help can make things worse)
2) it is good to be emotionally divested from the times and culture we live and to accept that time for this current world is running out
3) the gulf between believer and unbeliever is widening every day so that only deliverance of the former and destruction of the latter is the way through and God's plan
4) we should never however sell short the Holy Spirit and His ministry and His ability to speak the truth even when it seems all hope for the unbeliever has gone (where there is life, there is hope)
5) there is only one plan of God and it is perfect and working to a perfect schedule

I am sorry that this email has been so long and such a jumble of things. I have been very thoughtful and at times upset about ___'s death and the manner in how he died (the decline). No-one around me wants to talk about it and even seem hostile that I seem to need to process it. It seems the going rate for mourning in these parts seems to be about 25 minutes. It has left me with a lot to ponder on my own. I have been talking out loud to the Lord about it.

Thanks in advance for your patience with me, my friend.

In Jesus,
Response #6:
Good perspectives, my friend, and things we should all keep in mind. Reminds me also of this passage:
Then He also said to him who invited Him, "When you give a dinner or a supper, do not ask your friends, your brothers, your relatives, nor rich neighbors, lest they also invite you back, and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just."
Luke 14:12-14 NKJV
Jesus Christ is indeed the great Gift of God (2Cor.9:15), and He has won the great victory of the cross through which "He gave gifts to men" (Eph.4:8). He has given us "talents" and we are employing them to earn more than just "interest": we want the three crowns and a "well done!" from our Lord (link). We can never repay the Lord for a single sin for which He died on our behalf, but we are going to be rewarded, "paid back", for our efforts on behalf of Him and His Church. That is good motivation to keep always in the forefront of our hearts.
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
1st Corinthians 15:58 NKJV
Looking forward to you receiving your awards on the great day, my friend, and the banquet we enjoy thereafter.
On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine— the best of meats and the finest of wines. On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove his people’s disgrace from all the earth. The LORD has spoken. In that day they will say, “Surely this is our God; we trusted in him, and he saved us. This is the LORD, we trusted in him; let us rejoice and be glad in his salvation.”
Isaiah 25:6-9 NIV
So keep fighting your good fight, my friend! It makes all the difference in the world, this one, and infinitely more so in the one to come.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #7:
Professor Luginbill 

Good evening wise one! I finished CT 6 last night and it was glorious. I'm still in the Heavenly Places today and I don't want to come back. My question for today...why didn't you lead with that? Six books and a previous series before all those glorious visions. 

I'm still pondering our last exchange and will need some more on that later. 

Looking forward to strolling by your home on my way to see our Lord in the New Jerusalem. 

In Him
p.s., I was thinking about what I wrote in the last message and I want to add that I didn't mean for it to sound critical of your approach to teaching about the coming tribulation. I appreciate that you did so chronologically. My point was that it was such a beautiful picture you have revealed to me of the future glories to come that I wished I had gone through this part earlier. In fact I have been poking all around your site for many years but putting off this one study for some crazy reason or another. 

Blessed be God for getting me through this and blessed be you for writing it and being there all these years patiently encouraging us all to get to the hard work of actually reading and studying what you have prepared for us. The whole is greater than the parts. AMEN! Jumping around from place to place has been helpful to me of course, but it pales in comparison to taking in of the whole of the studies. 

Blessed be Chris for the way he has these on YouTube in those 10 minute parts that I could handle. I went over there to just help him out. The more traffic a person gets on their channel, the more it boost their content. I didn't think I needed it in the small segments but turns out it was just the thing to make it doable and comprehendible for me. 

The Lord works all thing for good, even my slow fearful heart. I'm encouraged more than ever to be productive for the Lord and to make myself an encouragement to others. I've had glimpses of the unity we will share in future and can see how we are to walk now as if already there. I love Him more and them more now because I have tasted and seen that the Lord is good. 

In Him
Response #7:
Thank you!

I appreciate all your good words, my friend, and I share your longing for all the wonderful things to come. Looking forward to the glories of eternity is what we are supposed to be doing.
Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
2nd Corinthians 4:16-18 NKJV

For we know that if our earthly tent-dwelling (i.e., our physical body) be struck, we have an abode [that comes] from God, a dwelling made without human agency, eternal in the heavens (i.e., the resurrection body). For indeed we do groan in this one, desiring to put on our habitation which comes from heaven. And [even] if we do put off this present one, at any rate, we (i.e., our spirits) will not be found naked (i.e., “body-less”; for we will enjoy an interim body in the meantime: cf. Lk.16:19-31; Rev.6:9-10; Rev.7:9-17).
2nd Corinthians 5:1-3

Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
Colossians 3:1-2 NASB95
You're fighting a good fight, my friend! Keep it up. That is the way to earn the crowns we all desire, and receive a "well done!" from our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

In Him,

Bob L.
p.s., keeping you and your family in my daily prayers.
Question #8:
Thanks for this Bob,

I couldn't agree more with you my friend. Today all that frustration about it all has withered away into sorrow for me. Just heard that ___, the husband of my mum's best friend has been put on end of life pathway. He has severe pneumonia and there is nothing to be done, he may not last the day. It is heartbreaking as he has fought against the truth all his life and to see him go like this, first dementia and then losing the use of his legs and then pneumonia, the decline has been so quick, I really hope that even though it has looked so bleak for him that he has finally embraced the truth and that is why he will be soon leaving us.

I can't understand how people attempt to get through all this and then face death without the Lord. It is a form of madness. I know 'logically' the reasons why people will apostatise at the start of tribulation but I still see it as madness. 

I can only see that it comes from a lukewarm and immature position. I remember when I was still a baby Christian I wrote to you about how touched I was that God granted Hezekiah deliverance and a longer life but as you are mature, you pointed out that Hezekiah was quite weak in faith to mourn the loss of his own life. It startled me at first when you told me that (as have many spiritually mature comments you have made over the years.). These weren't ex cathedra comments though you were giving me but teachings, I see that now.

These days after growing and seeing things spiritually with eyes of faith, I can't understand why anyone would cling to this life as though it is a good place to stay and as though it will be here forever. To die is gain for all who believe. It is true that all this is folly without the Lord. Utterly meaningless. And if it is our Lord's will to take away all the things that made our lives in the wilderness a little more comfortable and bearable then who are we to complain! We shouldn't be putting down roots here and getting too comfy as this is not our home and this place is condemned!

Indeed my life here is anything but comfy because of the testing I am going through but I realise it is all for the good for me as I have on occasion got a little bit too comfy with things here myself. It's good for a believer to long for the Day of the Lord and the judgement of all things.
Given how truly despicable humans are behaving right now and how fraught and uncertain our lives are, what is there to cling onto here?

I am presuming that a believer who complains bitterly about losing certain blessings and comforts are not progressing in maturity in their walk with our Lord. I remember what you wrote about the professionalism we should all have and that we are deployed into spiritual combat now and our lives are no longer our own. That no soldier worth his salt would get entangled in civilian matters whilst deployed.

I write this but I know that I can do much, much better myself than what I am doing. I still sometimes fall foul of the holding onto things here and I haven't got to that point of maturity yet where I actually embrace the fiery trials so as to grow in faith and to please our Father.

I do hope to get to that point soon and it encourages me to know that these are the things that I want for myself now. 

Your ministry has been everything to me! I have spent many hours over many days, weeks and months and now years digging into your ministry and it is so richly rewarding and deeply nourishing...thank you my friend!

In Jesus,
Response #8:
It's always a pleasure, my friend. And thanks as always for your encouraging words! I do feel the need to point out that no one is perfect; we all have "feet of clay", and we can all do better in our daily fight – myself included! It is "madness" to see things any other way, but no one is "madder" than the devil who thought to rebel against the ruler of the universe with impunity. Whenever we give into arrogance or act against what we KNOW is our best interest in the Lord, we're giving into that same sort of madness ourselves, at least to some degree. And who is completely free of that?

Re: "this place is condemned!" What a good way to put it! And the demolition has already been unalterably scheduled as well (2Pet.3:10-12; Rev.21:1). We'll get to see that – and also the reconstruction . . . of the new city where our true citizenship resides, one with each other and with Jesus Christ (Heb.12:22-23; Rev.21:2ff.).
"Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. “In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."
John 14:1-3 NKJV
Re: "Given how truly despicable humans are behaving right now and how fraught and uncertain our lives are, what is there to cling onto here?" Present circumstances do make things all that much more clear – at least they can, if we are looking at them from God's point of view. The plan is perfect. In ever single detail. Nothing happens which wasn't ordained, taking into account our free-will faith decisions and arranging things for us for the best, "working all things out together for good for those who love Him" (Rom.8:28). So whatever happens, God still loves us and is still with us and in us, working things for our best advantage, our genuine best advantage, even if that ends up involving some discomfort.

Re: "I know that I can do much, much better myself than what I am doing". Surely, that is true of us all. One the one hand, we do need to be tough on ourselves and we can all probably be a lot tougher than we are being. On the other hand, anyone who is devoting themselves to the Lord to the degree that you are doing is no doubt part of the "first wave" at present, and is entitled to draw some encouragement from that fact. Not too much though . . . because we all have to remember that there is no "finish line" until we see the Lord face to face. So no resting on laurels until then. As long as we are down here, we have continuing opportunities to be laying treasures up for the eternal future; if the Lord takes us home, that is all to the good in every way. Truly, for we who are striving to follow Jesus Christ closer day by day, "to live is Christ and to die is gain" (Phil.1:21). If we can hold tightly to that truth one day at a time, we can have confidence of a good result at the judgment seat of Christ.

Good Christian friends like yourself are what make this ministry what it is.

Keeping you in my prayers daily.

In Jesus our dear Savior,

Bob L.
Question #9:
The "4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse" are often depicted in media as literal beings, and it made me wonder, is this accurate at all Biblically speaking, or are they just metaphors for the disasters that will come in the Tribulation?
Response #9:
These are symbols. They appear when the Lamb (representing our Lord) opens the first four seals of the book of Revelation in the third heaven where John is standing. They are not on earth and they never occur anywhere else in the book. And the Tribulation doesn't start until the seventh seal is opened. So these horsemen represent trends that will take place during the Tribulation. The seals which represent them are visible on the outside of the scroll and can be seen before it is opened. Thus they give a preview of trends that will occur during the Tribulation (for the precise symbolism, please see the link: "The Seven Seals").

Re: "[they] are often depicted in media as literal being", not surprising that popular culture has this entirely wrong. No doubt the people who opine on this have never ever even bothered to read the entire book of Revelation. 

One major thing that is seemingly always gotten wrong is the word "apocalypse". "Apocalypse" is the word which "revelation" translates; that is to say, an "apocalypse" IS a revelation. Note the singular too. Not "revelations" (as may often misname the book) but THE revelation/unveiling. . . of Jesus Christ to the world, namely, the events which precede His return and the details of that return. 

The book of Revelation's purpose is to give believers a roadmap, so to speak, of everything that will happen before, during and after our Lord's "revelation" to the world at the second advent. So an "apocalypse"/unveiling is not a bad thing, not if it's "THE apocalypse [revelation] of Jesus Christ" (Rev.1:1).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #10:
Hi Bob,

Yes it does stand firm in Christ. I am very tired Bob and yet I know my ministry work really has only just begun. The fight though does get heavier and hotter the more you try to push forward on the offensive. Sometimes I forget to continue to do the defensive work alongside the offensive.

I keep you and your ministry in my prayers. There is so much deception and confusion around now that it is not always easy to remain upright, it is easy to fall down or get stuck in the weeds but our Lord will see us through if we trust Him.

I have no idea why but for some reason I was sent an email from a 'Christian' organisation that seems to be merging a lot of secular worldly issues with purported faith. It calls itself Revelation 18 church but also goes by the more prominent name of 'InPower - claim your authority'. Looks like another dominionist type sect to be wary of. This is probably the type of personal freedoms, political change and religion mix that the Antichrist will be championing. This organisation says all the 'right' things that most conspiracy theorists would eat up. They claim to fight against surveillance, 5G, mandatory vaccines etc. May come to nothing but may be one to watch. Interesting they call themselves 'Revelation 18' church as that chapter is all about the destruction of Babylon. It seems a common trend for dominionist style churches to say that they are the ones who will destroy Babylon. Very disturbing to see.

Your friend in Jesus,
p.s. yes I was right in my suspicions. One of their logos is a thinly disguised Ouroboros (when you remove the dove wing) with a cross and promise of civil liberty all mixed into one. So I reckon that the syncretism of Libertarianism, Nationalism, personal sovereignty and Occultism with a veneer of Christianity will be more prevalent as time goes on. Maybe this will be the type of movement the beast will herald.
p.p.s here is the entry on Ouroboros. Notice further down it mentions that the Ouroboros snake represents Kundalini? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros This 'In-Power' organisation then also ties the Charismatic churches (speaking in tongues/ Kundalini), Dominionist movement (Kingdom now theology) and Word of faith (Prosperity Gospel) movement together. 

Seems that all these Biblically false movements are all merging together with occultism mixed in also. The groundwork for this has already been laid and is very successful in capturing most Laodicean believers at this time!
Response #10:
In the end, they all work for the devil, so there is plenty of commonality "under the skin" (link: antichrist's religion of the Tribulation). 

It's an interesting observation about the trend towards merging into one big group with various "gates" but all sharing the same allegiance . . . and doing so in more and more obvious ways. That is exactly what we should expect from the beast's religion. The only thing NOT acceptable in time shortly to come will be genuine, biblical Christianity (of which there is precious little left in the world already at present).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #11:
Hi Bob,

Just something I wanted to share. I've noticed how there are so many testimonies on the internet from people who the Lord has delivered from New Age beliefs and are now Christians. It's great to hear these testimonies and I can relate to them so well.

I listened to one video where three ex-new agers talked about how there is so much biblical illiteracy in the Body of Christ and how New Age teachings are in most churches now in one form or another. That's something I noticed as well after I came back to the Lord. They're right in what they've said and it's good that they're trying to point this out, but what concerns me is that the majority of these new believers come out of New Age beliefs and join churches which (borrowing your words) in "my experience and observation" aren't a fat lot better than what they've just escaped from. All the "Christianized" New Age teachings along with all the other false teachings like the pre-trib rapture. The people in the video also commented on the number of testimonies and they said it was like a "mass exodus" from the New Age to Christianity. That sounds great ... on the surface. I couldn't help but think that Satan is happy enough for these new believers to make their exit from the New Age then straight into a lukewarm church. Some may not even be genuine believers. It brought to my mind something you wrote in The Coming Tribulation - Part 3A - The Situation of the Church and "church-visible" on the Eve of the Tribulation.
This dual phenomenon of complacency within the Church in our final era of Laodicea and an ever growing proportion of unbelievers within the church-visible is creating serious impediments to spiritual growth in our own time, and will be the cause of increasing spiritual danger for all Christians at that future time. Consider the negatives today of an environment where entertainment and socializing are given priority and where the search for truth and the teaching of truth is stifled. Within "Christian" churches where these circumstances obtain (at present more the rule than the exception), spiritual growth, drawing near to Christ and learning how to better serve Him, is a nigh on impossible task - when it happens, it happens in spite of rather than because of such groups. Now consider that during the Tribulation, when the proportion of unbelievers has increased and false teaching has spread, what dampening of enthusiasm for the truth must then occur in Christian groups that are marginal even now! Indeed, we may expect that during the Tribulation by far the majority of main-line Christian groups and organizations will be or will shortly become anything but truly Christian, and this shift of organized Christianity from mere ineffectiveness to outright hostility to truth and true spirituality will serve to have a very chilling effect on all those who are striving to serve their Lord in a good and proper way. For when nearly all of the identifiable "Christian" churches and organizations have melted into one single matrix not merely of complacency about the inclusion of unbelievers and of tolerance of false doctrines (the case today), but actually of aggressive hostility towards any attitude of true dedication to Christ and of any correct understanding of the truth, then all true believers and genuine followers of Jesus will stand out as misfits as never before. This will be a test of faith unlike any in history, and, alarmingly, a test which many will fail, swelling the ranks of the Great Apostasy.
It's hard enough now in Laodicea to find ministries where the truth is being taught and it's only going to get worse once the Tribulation hits us. Most Christians aren't being taught the truth about the Tribulation like you teach it, Bob. And it's so sad to me to think that people can be delivered out of New Age beliefs or any other false religion or cult and become genuine believers, but then still be so easily deceived again in the Tribulation. This will be the case for weak and lukewarm believers too. And to think that one third of true believers will apostatize is shocking. I know there are other causes of the Great Apostasy as well, but it just makes me think about how ALL truth is so important. Especially teaching about the Tribulation because we are so close.

I wholeheartedly believe that the Lord will always provide the truth for those who are truly searching for it. He did it for me. So no matter how busy life is and how many obstacles are thrown in my way, I'm determined to continue to grow spiritually and continue with my studies in The Coming Tribulation. With the Lord's help, I want to do my very best day by day. I think it's so important to keep this in mind because the time is so short. If it's the Lord's will that I go through the Tribulation, then I want to be ready. Not only for myself, but to be available for the Lord to use me to help those who want and need the truth and to be strengthened and encouraged through it. The Lord has blessed me with a teacher who feeds me so well and I feel that it's my duty and my privilege to help others in whatever way I can. We all need each other.

Thanks for all your wonderful teaching, encouragement and support, Bob. You are a gift to us from the Lord and I praise and thank Him for you.

Matthew 25:1-13

In our dear Lord Jesus
Response #11:
This is wonderful! And it will be helpful for others to hear as well. I have had a great many correspondents who have been snookered into this particular new-age modern Gnosticism deceit (link) or who have been trying to help friends or family who have. There is a great deal of deception out there at present, but, you are correct, "we ain't seen nothin' yet!" Reminds me also of this passage:
Nevertheless, I have this against you: You [i.e., the church-visible] tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols [i.e., unfaithfulness to the Lord and to the truth; substituting falsehoods for truth and faithful following].
Revelation 2:20 NIV
It is so very true that we won't regret a single bit of truth we have learned and believed once that dark time begins – but woe to those who have squandered this brief respite. I do think it is not unlikely that those like yourself who have taken advantage of the opportunities the Lord has given us will be called into service to help those who have not. We will probably be busier than ever once "the balloon goes up".

Thanks again for this wonderful email, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #12:
Doc...I almost always am consumed with dread over meeting Christ, I've made awful mistakes and if it's really going to be in front of the entire Church when they're put on display and made more than crystal clear how bad those truly were to me and everyone, I don't think I can live knowing such a thing is in my future. I also know joys beyond comprehension await past that, but I don't understand how anyone's soul doesn't just buckle under the weight of the judgement beforehand...I need assurance in this regard.
Response #12:
It's not an unreasonable reaction . . . initial reaction, that is:
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.
2nd Corinthians 5:10-11 NIV
If even the apostle Paul was apprehensive about standing before the Lord, that then is of course the right way to be thinking. But note that this fear is the godly fear we should all be feeling in any case, not terror or paralysis but the same sort of reverence we would feel before a loving a beneficent father whom we loved but whose position and power we also completely respected.
The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever.
Psalm 19:9 NIV

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.
Psalm 111:10a NIV

A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him— the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD—and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.
Isaiah 11:1-3a NIV
Since our Lord also comported Himself in godly fear of the Father during His first advent – and delighted in it – this then is the proper thing and not in any way a negative thing. So there is a difference between godly/reverence type "fear" and terror/paralyzing type fear – all the difference in the world. For one thing, our Christian fear of God is part and parcel of the love we feel for Him and the love we are certain He has for us. Here are some links: "What is a healthy fear of God", and in CT 1: "Don't be afraid" and in Hebrews 4: "Omniscience and the Fear of God".
Finally, what are we apprehensive about? We should be concerned about having all of the pointless things we did, the things not acceptable to Jesus Christ, being burned up (1Cor.3:10-15). But even those with "big bonfires" (as I'm sure Paul will have on account of his years of rebellion before he came to Christ) can receive a "well done!" from the Lord (Matt.25:21; 25:23; Lk.19:17), and carry off wonderful rewards, "gold, silver and precious stones" (1Cor.3:10-15). The latter come from spiritual growth, progress and production.

So the RIGHT response for anyone experiencing this dread you report is to immediately "get cracking" with spiritual growth, progress and production. We can't change the past, but we certainly can still influence and affect the experience we're going to have before Jesus Christ on that day. We all ought to be making the most of every opportunity day by day to be adding to our "heavenly thesaurus" for exactly this reason.
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
Matthew 6:19-21 NIV
Here's the main link at Ichthys to where the subject of rewards is treated in the greatest detail: in CT 6: "The Judgment and Reward of the Church".

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #13:
Dr. Luginbill

Hope you are doing well. I want to again give my gratitude to Chris B. and Angel H. for the new audio files. I didn't realize how helpful they would be. Thanks to them I have officially entered the downhill slide on the CT series. This is a mountain I have tried to climb multiple times. I don't understand now what my issue was but because of the files being on YouTube in those 10-minute short hikes, I have made it over the hill. I'm in part 6 so not officially finished but I can see the finish line and if the Lord allows, I will be done this week. Praise the Lord for all 3 of you. 

My question for today is one of being precise with our words. I was speaking with ___ and we both were using your materials and the Holy Bible to discuss and refine our language when speaking about concepts pertaining to sin and eternal separation from God.

My issue is of the following statement- "No one goes to hell for sin". Would you say this is a true statement or a false one?

He was more precise and added- "No one goes to hell for sin, only unbelief." 

I say that unbelief is a sin, the unpardonable sin, the sin of rejecting the Holy spirits witness to us about our Lord Jesus Christ. The only sin that His sacrifice did not pay for. This means that the first statement is not true and the second is only fuzzy truth. If unbelief is a sin, then why are we keeping it over here in a separate category. To be clear, he and I both have made this statement to other people, so I am not picking on him but questioning a phrase we both have used.

Question 2- If an unbeliever comes before the Great White Throne of Judgement (and only unbelievers do) are they sent to the Lake of Fire for the one sin of rejecting Christ and His perfect sacrifice on the cross or are they now accountable for all their sins because they chose to reject His payment and stand on their own merits? 

Thank you for your help in this matter. Let me add that you may be getting many more emails from me than in the past. The Great Apostasy section is particularly powerful in audio format. 

In Christ,
Response #13:
So glad the MP3 upgrade has been helpful to you! I find the new ones a lot easier to listen to as well. I guess this really is one thing that AI can do well. Good job in getting through CT (nearly)! It's neither short nor easy, so kudos to you!

On your question, the Bible says what is says and means what it means. When we make statements in order to explain biblical principles, while that is fine, we need to keep in mind that just because they may sound logical to us and "follow" what the Bible is teaching, they are not themselves "the Bible". Only the Bible is the Bible. That is the problem with "theology" in general. Theologians not only make up such statements but they then all too often invest them with authority (or their disciples do) and then, before you know it, theology is arguing and making further deductions based not on the Bible but upon statements upon statements that are not precisely in the Bible in the first place. 

So while I agree with both statements, I don't have the same problems with them because if I want to know that these statements mean, exactly, I will go to the Bible and see what it says rather than worry about parsing the statements themselves. Apropos of this discussion are these passages:
"Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin." He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”
Mark 3:28-30 NIV

Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Romans 11:20-22 NIV

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1st John 2:2 NIV

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Revelation 20:12 NIV

Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:15 NIV
The first passage tells us, upon careful reading, that the "unpardonable sin" is rejecting the gospel. The second passage tells us that faith is the determinator as to who is saved and who is not. The third passage tells us that Jesus died for all sins. The fourth and fifth passages tell us that everyone whose name was blotted out of the book of life is damned and that the judgment is about works, not sins. So we conclude that sins were forgiven and that this issue is faith in Jesus Christ, not sins – since He died for all sins. 

This is a long way of saying that what you say is true and what ___ says is also true and that I really don't find any basis for arguing about this. When we present the gospel, if the truth in the statements you both make and in the passages above come through, then we have "done our job" as witnesses for Jesus Christ. We don't want to get into the weeds about "well, if unbelief is a sin and Christ died for all sins then how can anyone be condemned because Christ died for that sin too", because the issue is faith in Christ or rejection of Christ – and that is why the passages in Revelation say things the way they do. Happy to have another go at this if I didn't get to everything you're wondering about.

On Q#2, as mentioned above, those who reject Christ, either actively or passively (by failing to put their faith in Him in this life), are condemned. It's not a matter of accounting. Christ completely eliminated the issue of sin in terms of salvation. Yes, it is an issue in this life; yes, it is (or should be) a factor in unbelievers recognizing that they need a Savior and in us believers being ever grateful for His taking away of all of our sins, but it is not sin that will be an issue at the Great White Throne: all who stand before it rejected Jesus Christ (He will make that clear), so instead of standing judgment based on His work for us, they have to stand judgment on their own record, and no matter how "good" they were or what merit they think they have or what clever arguments they thought to deploy to show they shouldn't be condemned, all these will be of no avail . . . because their names are not in the book of life, blotted out on account of unbelief.

Send your questions! It's always great to hear from you, my friend!

In Jesus Christ our dear Lord and Savior,

Bob L.
Question #14:
Hi Bob,

So, the seven trumpet judgements occur in the final 21 months of the first half of the Tribulation, right? One of the folks in the group asked me about the wording in CT6 that says:
Just as the first half of the Tribulation is begun with seven judgments of warning (the trumpet judgments), and the Second Advent is preceded by seven judgments of punishment (the bowl judgments), so the actual return of Christ is accompanied by these seven "thunder" judgments.
https://ichthys.com/Tribulation-Part6.htm#:~:text=Just%20as%20the%20first%20half%20of

Our friend was curious about saying the trumpet judgments begin the first half of the Tribulation if in fact they don't kick off until 21 months in. I could kind of see their point, and thought maybe it might make sense to have it read something like:
Just as the final 21 months in the first half of the Tribulation have seven judgements of warning (the trumpet judgements), and the Second Advent is preceded by seven judgments of punishment (the bowl judgments), so the actual return of Christ is accompanied by these seven "thunder" judgments.
What do you think? IS there something we are missing?

Yours in Christ,
Response #14:
Good catch!

Changed now to "concludes with".

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #15:
Hi Bob,

Just to make sure I can pass on the right thing:

The reason why we'd want to make this change is to make it clear that the trumpet judgements only start 21 months in (that is, at the end of the first half), not at the beginning of the Tribulation, right? Whereas the initial wording (the typo) sort of gave the impression they started right at the beginning, which isn't right?

In Him,
Response #15:
That's exactly right. I was no doubt thinking "first half" and that clicked over into "begins"; whereas of course the seventh trumpet begins/IS the second half, the Great Tribulation".

You know what they say in Classics: "Even Homer nods" occasionally.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
p.s., already changed.
Question #16:
Hey Dr. Luginbill, 

Congratulations on publishing Hebrews chapter seven! 

Some of these questions may be simple but I just wanted to double check some of my views. 

What do you mean when you subtract the 7 year tribulation from the 2,000 years of the church age (currently studying the coming Tribulation before moving into the Hebrew series), how is it that the church age lasts 2,000 years if that is the case (you mentioned that it belongs to both the Church and Jewish Ages)? Wouldn't that put the start of the Tribulation in 2033 (which of course I don't believe)? Appreciated if you could clear that up for me. Sorry if its a dumb question but that one doesn't click in my head. 

Just finished reading through the great apostasy and I've been contemplating the meaning of Revelation 12:4 and Daniel 8:9-12. Of course I agree with your interpretation on these passages but I want to know how to respond to those who may view them differently. The verse in Revelation mentions the Dragon (specifically Satan) sweeping his tail (metaphorically speaking), bringing down a third of the stars. Is it possible to translate this verse as only referring to Angels during the Tribulations midpoint when Satan and the rest of his followers are cast down from Heaven? You mentioned it as both in the CT (I agree). 

Could 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and Daniel 8:9-12 also be interpreted to referring only to Angels? Of course I believe both are meant but I guess what I'm asking for is further reassurance that this doesn't refer to just Angels. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, does the Greek have the word "rebellion" or "apostasy?" In Daniel 8, how do we distinguish the apostates from the Angels? Is the NIV translation of this passage correct or is it misleading? I've seen your reasons in the study but is there any other convincing evidence that both are intended here? 

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

How could apostates also be referred to as being thrown down when they aren't in Heaven but still on the earth? Or is that just part of the metaphor? 

Regarding the reason as to why Antichrist is directly mentioned as the one throwing them down in Daniel but not so in Revelation (Satan as the Dragon), is that because the two are synonymous since the beast works and operates for the Devil? 

In Christ, 
Response #16:
Thank you!

As to your questions . . .

1) This is the issue of the "Tribulation overlap". That is to say, it's a question of whether the Church Age ends just because the Tribulation begins. If there were a "pre-trib rapture", then of course it would end. But we Church Age believers will still be here after the start, and all NT scripture looks forward to the return of the Lord, not to the beginning of the Tribulation. So my interpretation is that the Tribulation is a joint period, a shared period, between the end of the Church Age and the last seven years of the Jewish Age. An overlap. That is the only way the evidence all makes sense to me. It is an interpretation, of course, an important part of the 2026 interpretation. Here's a good link on that.

2) The translations are the translations (happy to talk about them separately if you have any issues/questions about what the text reads). It's possible to interpret these passages many ways. But there is only one correct interpretation. That is what we strive for always. 
(10) And [the little horn] (i.e., antichrist) magnified himself against the host of heaven, and he cast down to the earth some of the host (i.e., believers seduced into apostasy) and some of the stars (i.e., angels seduced into rebellion) and he trampled them underfoot (i.e., destruction by association). (11) He even magnified himself against the Prince of the host (i.e., Christ). The daily sacrifice was abolished by him, and the holy place (i.e., the inner court) was desecrated. (12) And along with the daily sacrifice, the host (i.e., believers) fell into his power on account of [the] rebellion (i.e., the Great Apostasy). And he threw truth to the ground, and was successful in whatever he did.
Daniel 8:10-12

And [the dragon's] (i.e., the devil's) tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven (i.e., both fallen angels and fallen believers) and threw them to the earth (i.e., their rebellion or apostasy and consequent association with them in their fall).
Revelation 12:4a 
The fact that in Daniel it's clearly talking about human beings as well as fallen angels coupled with the fact that the two passages are clearly meant to be taken in tandem means that excluding human beings in Revelation 12:4 (or fallen angels, for that matter) is not appropriate. In the context too "stars" are not angels (Rev.12:1), even though stars are often equivalent to angels in scripture (e.g., Is.14:12-13; Rev.1:20). Taking it both ways is the only way I can see to fit all the evidence. 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 to my mind makes this connection more solid. Fallen angels fell eons ago; this passage says that the apostasy is future, so it has to be referring to the Great Apostasy. Equally, Daniel 8:10: how could angels be said to be "stamped into the ground"? That context is all about earthly doings under the reign of antichrist. The only thing that fallen angels are doing now or will be doing during the Tribulation is to aid the devil. They WILL be cast from heaven along with him (Rev.12:7-9), so there is your double application.

The believers who apostatize aren't said to be in heaven, but the text of Daniel 8:10 is very careful so as to be able to apply to both apostates and fallen angels. The group thrown down to the ground is said to be the "host of heaven", but that is what believers are part of even while here on earth, i.e., part of the entire family of God. We have our names written in heaven (Lk.10:20). And positionally, that is where we currently "are", even for those of us who have not yet matriculated to the third heaven and the heavenly Mount Zion.
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 10:22-23 NKJV
Agreement on your last point: in terms of angels, Satan is the direct agent; in terms of human beings, antichrist is the direct agent. They both have a unified purpose, the latter being the son of the former (and possibly possessed by him).

Do feel free to write back about any of the above!

In Jesus,

Bob L. 
Question #17:
Thanks! 

On the "tribulational overlap" ok, that makes sense. I think it was just the wording in CT that threw me off or the way I was reading it, whichever. 
In the context too "stars" are not angels (Rev.12:1), even though stars are often equivalent to angels in scripture.
Do you mean the Daniel or Revelation passage or both? It just seems to me like someone can come along and read Revelation 12:2 and say it refers only to the casting out of Heaven of Satan and his followers at the Tribulation's midpoint. How can we be sure this verse refers to both? I don't wanna sound dense but maybe I'm just looking for further evidence. 
2nd Thessalonians 2:3 to my mind makes this connection more solid. Fallen angels fell eons ago; this passage says that the apostasy is future, so it has to be referring to the Great Apostasy. 
Does the Greek have the word "rebellion" or "apostasy?" Again, how can we be sure this isn't talking only about the revolt/rebellion in Heaven at the midpoint resulting in the Devil's being cast down? Or some could translate it as a rebellion against God from the majority of the world's population of unbelievers alive at that time. Of course we agree on this but I felt it wouldn't hurt to reexamine this view, which is weird because I've never really thought about this before. Then again, you know me as the "assurance seeker." I'm hoping that isn't a bad thing. I suppose I'm far from the only one (otherwise I would imagine you would probably have a lot fewer people asking you questions, lol). 
The believers who apostatize aren't in heaven, but the text of Daniel 8:10 is very careful so as to be able to apply to both. The group thrown down to the ground is said to be the "host of heaven", but that is what believers are part of, the entire family of God. We have our names written in heaven (Lk.10:20). And positionally, that is where we currently "are", even for those of us who have not yet matriculated to the third heaven and the heavenly Mount Zion.
Thanks and agreed. 

In His grace and power, 
Response #17:
Reference was to Revelation 12:1 where the tribal elders of Israel, human beings, are represented as "stars" in the context; so there stars are human not angelic.

Re: "It just seems to me like someone can come along and read Revelation 12:2 and say it refers only to the casting out of Heaven of Satan and his followers at the Tribulation's midpoint. How can we be sure this verse refers to both?" I hope we can agree that proper interpretation of the Bible takes a lot of hard, careful work, work that can only be properly done by someone with the gift of pastor-teacher, and only if said person has the proper preparation and experience. If figuring out difficulties in the Bible were left to every "someone who can come along and read", then there would be nothing but confusion. All believers should read the Bible for themselves. All believers have the Spirit and can be encouraged by scripture and have true things they've been taught reinforced and brought back to mind thereby. And all believers can see plainly for themselves if something being taught is definitely wrong. But figuring out doctrinal teaching is something left for pastor-teachers who are prepared and willing to do the work. So when a believer "comes along" and reads a passage as says to him/herself "I think it might mean X", well, they COULD be right, but any humble believer will realize that proper biblical interpretation is more complicated than their first, uninformed impression, so that they could never be SURE if they were right, even if they were (accidentally) right. Any humble believer will consult the teaching to which they have voluntarily committed themselves. Any believer who decides that his/her first-impression, ungifted, uneducated take on things reigns supreme will end up knowing nothing for certain, nothing true, that is, and will end up in shipwreck if he/she persists.

The reasons for the interpretation given are set out in the SR and CT series. However, taking things from just these contexts: 1) both passages are speaking about rebellion from the Lord; 2) Satan and antichrist figure heavily in both broader contexts; 3) there is a group in both contexts which is led into rebellion along with these prime movers of evil; and actually two discrete groups in the Daniel passage; 4) we certainly know that there are fallen angels from many places in scripture; 5) we also know that there is a great apostasy of believers from various places in scripture as well (link); 6) fallen angels and believers share the characteristic of belonging to the Lord but then rebelling from him; 7) both are referred to as stars and heavenly (on account of their original status). 

So my counter-question would be, "on what basis are we allowed to exclude either group from either passage?" I hope also that we have over the years explained sufficiently the point that prophetic scriptures often have multiple applications. The false notion that there can only be one is terrible thorn in the side of contemporary evangelical interpretation . . . and has often led such individuals to adopting single interpretations of prophetic prophecies which are WRONG even though "single" (i.e., finding a pre-Trib rapture everywhere when it is nowhere). So the evangelical dictum, "If the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense" is terribly flawed. Plain to whom, exactly, and on what hermeneutical basis, exactly? Makes sense to whom, exactly, – and what are their qualifications? And just how does this "plain sense" align with everything else the Bible has to say? In the end, there is no substitute for doing the hard work. There is no substitute for getting it right.

Re: 2nd Thessalonians 2:3: The passage says . . .
(2) So we ask you, brothers, in regard to the coming our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling together to Him [at His 2nd Advent return], that you not be so easily moved from your correct understanding [of these matters], nor disturbed [by doubts about what you should know to be true] – not even if [this "new information" purports to come] through a spirit, or an [inspired] word or a letter supposedly from me, declaring that the Day of the Lord is already upon us. (3) Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For [the 2nd Advent cannot come] unless the Apostasy [the great falling away of the faithful in the first half of the Tribulation] has already occurred, and the man of lawlessness [antichrist] has been revealed, that “son of destruction” (cf. Jn.17:12 of Judas), (4) the one who will oppose and exalt himself against every so-called god and object of worship to such a degree that he will take his seat in the temple of God and represent himself as being God. (5) Don’t you remember that I was telling you these things while I was still with you? (6) Even now you know what it is (i.e., the Spirit) that restrains [antichrist] so that he will be revealed [only] in his own time. (7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work – it is only the Restrainer [who keeps things in check, and will] until He moves out of the way. (8) And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will destroy with the Spirit of His mouth, and will annihilate with the appearance of His coming.
2nd Thessalonians 2:2-8
I hope we can see that this passage is entirely dealing with the Tribulation. The Great Apostasy will occur during the Tribulation. The fallen angels rebelled against the Lord following the devil before Adam and Eve were created (on the far side of the Genesis gap) – long in the past. The Great Apostasy hasn't happened till yet. So Paul is talking about the future. Otherwise there would be no reason for him to say any of this at all since he's trying to prove to his readers that the "the day of the Lord" has NOT yet come (2Thes.2:2).

I do think it is important for pastor-teachers in training to carefully examine every teaching, so I'm certainly not finding fault here. Discerning all the ins and outs of eschatology is no small task. If it were an easy thing to do, no doubt this would have happened long before now. One important point to remember, one which I often stress about the eschatological teachings at Ichthys, is that every single interpretation of eschatology has to mesh with every other. If that is the case in a system being presented (which I do feel is the case with what is presented on the website), then it is a case of the whole being greater than the parts. Or otherwise put, while it's OK to examine carefully every single piece, keep in mind that the fact that said piece "fits" with the other pieces is an important additional assurance (for "assurance seekers" seeking in true humility) that the piece is correct and in the right place – and an additional caveat against randomly pulling bricks out of the foundation and casting them off without good and sufficient reason.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #18:
Hi Bob,

Is the "ascension" in Ephesians 4:7-10 referring to Christ's resurrection from the dead (ascending from the three days he spent in the grave), or Jesus' ascension to the third heaven in Acts 1:9-11?

Put differently: In Response #1 of this email posting you say "The gift of the Spirit has to follow our Lord's resurrection/ascension/session/glorification – in other words just as an official recognition in heaven of His victory at the cross was necessary for His glorification, so also it seems to have been necessary in order for the promised "giving of gifts" from the plunder of victory to commence."

Exactly what is the timeline for these following things?

Ascension
Session
Glorification

When exactly did the things discussed in Ephesians 4:7-10 occur?

Your friend in Christ,
Response #18:
As Pentecost happened after our Lord returned to the Father, that would be the time frame and your bullet points are correct. Christ rose from the dead on the third day. He only ascended to the Father after the following 40 days just before Pentecost (Acts 1:3), and there was a further week or so between His session and the pouring out of the Spirit (Pentecost being 49/50 days after firstfruits: Lev.23:15).

Apologies in advance if I'm not understanding your question.

Difficult week ahead here with our monster personnel meeting Friday afternoon and into the evening after teaching four classes. I've got the decks mostly cleared for Thursday to prep my files and write my letters (over a dozen, once I get my assignments), but getting to everything important Friday will be challenging, depending how long we have to go. Prayers appreciated!

Keeping you in my daily prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #19:
Hi Bob,

Hm. Let me try wording it a bit differently.

1) When were the pre-cross believers who were previously in Abraham's Bosom led to the Third Heaven -- when Jesus rose from the dead ("ascending" from Hades, so to speak), or when he ascended to heaven in Acts 1:9, after spending 40 days with them after the resurrection? Some different time altogether?

2) How about the "gifts" in view in Ephesians 4:8? When were those given? Are these spiritual gifts, meaning that they would only be given at Pentecost when they received the Holy Spirit?

3) By "timeline", I was not meaning the sequence for Ascension/Session/Glorification, but like when these events happened. For example, it wouldn't be proper to say Jesus was glorified until after Acts 1:9 when He took His place at the right hand of the Father, right? What about the other things? Did all of those things positionally happen after Acts 1:9?

Hopefully those questions are clearer?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Things have gone pretty well the last few days. Someone from one of the local groups messaged me some questions re: resuscitation and what exactly happens after we die (interim body et al.), and I've been busy answering those. First time so far I've really gotten formally asked questions like this from anyone in these groups, so that's gratifying.

Some of the workflow matters have come together the last bit too, so I will hopefully soon be releasing the BB1: Theology videos publicly (although I know I've been saying that for a while). We're actually almost through that study now. I haven't really talked to the group yet, but I'm thinking maybe we'll do Christology or Soteriology next. I'm leaning towards Christology.

Sort of feels like I'm holding my breath before things really kick off (trying to start up the in person study and so on), but I really have moved a lot of pieces into place over the last few months, and now it just remains to be seen what will come of it all. Prayers appreciated on that front too.

Work is work. Same old same old.

I'll be praying for your Thursday/Friday crunch!

Yours in Christ,
Response #19:
Here's my understanding of things:

1) Christ descends into paradise for the three days.

2) He rises on the third day.

3) After 40 days He ascends to the Father, is seated with Him and is glorified.

4) The believers in paradise are conveyed to the third heaven at this time as well, probably by angels (cf. Lk.16:22).

5) On Pentecost, the Spirit is sent along with the empowerment of spiritual gifts.

I don't find anything in the Ephesians passage in conflict with this.

Thanks for the update! Good stuff! I'm keeping you in my prayers on this (let me know how the "launch" goes).

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #20:
Dear Sir,
I Have Had A Brief Listen To Your Recording On " The Gap Theory "
And I Have One Question, 
What Other Scriptures Or Evidence Is There Besides ....
[ Ephesians 4:8-9 ]
1/That The Lord Jesus Christ, Took Abraham And Others Who Were In The Paradise Of Hades Into Heaven.
2/And If It Was True Then Why Did They Leave King David Behind !
[ Acts 2:29 ]
[ Acts 2:34 ]
" For David Is Not Ascended Into The Heavens "

The Apostle Peter Gives The Impression That King David Was In The Paradise Of Hades.
And Another Notable Scripture Is .....
[ John 3:13 ]
" And No Man Hath Ascended Up To Heaven,
But He That Came Down From Heaven,
Even The Son Of Man Which Is In Heaven "

Which Would Mean That The Paradise Of Hades Is Still In Business, And That God's Children Are Waiting For An Entrance To Be Provided Into The Eternal Kingdom Of Our Lord And Saviour Jesus Christ. 
The Millennium Kingdom.
[ 2 Peter 1:10-11 ]

After They Have Successfully Negotiated The Judgment Seat Of Christ, 
[1 Corinthians 3:14-15 ]
Which It Would Seem Is A/The Reward
For Living Out Christ's Life And Nature 
Through The Indwelling Holy Spirit In This Life.
Which Would Mean That Some Will Be Rejected At The Judgment Seat Of Christ 
( Saved, Yet So As By Fire )
( But Not Lost )
For Any Believer Who Has Accepted Christ As Their Saviour To Be Lost Would
Affect God's Righteous Throne And His Righteous Character [ Person ]
[ Psalm 89:14 ]
It Would Seem To Me From Being A Christian For 45 Years Through Many Tribulations,
That God Will Bring All Of His Children Home Eventually, Even If Some Have To Spend Some Time In The Glasshouse !
[ Matthew 25:30 ]

There Is It Would Seem, A Requirement For Entering Into The Kingdom Of The Heaven's. 
And That Requirement Is That Once We Have Been Saved We Need To Allow The Christ 
Through The Indwelling Holy Spirit To Live His Life In Us And Through Us.
We Are Well Able To Live The Life That God Requires Of Us By Allowing His Son To Live Our Life For Us And With Us Through The Holy Spirit. 

HE DIED FOR US :
HE MUST LIVE FOR US :

This Would Answer Such Seeming Difficult 
Scriptures As .......
[ Matthew 5:20 ]
[ Matthew 7:22-23 ]
Matthew 25:12 ]
And Some Other Scriptures Besides

But That The Paradise Of Hades Has Been Taken Into The Heavens Doesn't Fit In With The Overall Revelation Of Scripture.
Take Care 
Response #20:
Good to hear from you.

Scripture only has to say something once for it to be true (here's a link to where this issue you ask about is covered in detail). This passage is repeated and expanded in the New Testament from the Old so that we have added emphasis:
Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive.
Psalm 68:18a KJV

(7) And to each of us this grace has been given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. (8) For it says, "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive (i.e., He brought pre-cross believers to heaven).
Ephesians 4:7-8a
Who ascended, if not the Lord Jesus Christ (link)? Who was in "captivity" before His ascension who would be eligible to go to heaven with Him if not pre-cross believers?
But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.
Philippians 1:22-23 NKJV
Paul preferred death to life because death meant being with Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is in heaven. Believers therefore go to be with Him after death – in heaven.
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
Revelation 7:9-10 NKJV
Here we see all manner of believers in heaven before the resurrection. Believers after death are in heaven, no longer in paradise below the earth.

Much more could be said on the positive side of the ledger to explain that this teaching is correct. Please have a look at the following link where more detail is provided (Our Heavenly, Pre-Resurrection, Interim State).

Now in terms of your objections to this teaching:

1) "David Is Not Ascended": Acts 2:34 actually says, "David did not ascend", meaning directly at that time after his death. Paul's point in saying this is NOT to suggest that David is not presently in heaven (he is), but to make it clear that Psalm 110 was prophetic, talking about the Messiah, not about David himself. Christ ascended shortly after His victory on the cross and resurrection; David had to wait for that time to leave paradise and enter heaven (as did all the other Old Testament believers).

2) "No Man Hath Ascended Up To Heaven": John 3:13 was said by our Lord BEFORE His own ascension and BEFORE the event stated in Ephesians 4:7-9 (Ps.68:18). So there is no conflict between these passages in fact.

3) "God's Children Are Waiting For An Entrance To Be Provided Into The Eternal": Yes of course we are all still "waiting" (1st Peter 1:10-11). The Millennial Kingdom hasn't even begun yet (that follows our Lord's second advent), and certainly not the eternal Kingdom of the Father and New Jerusalem. It's important to note that the third heaven is not the original home of God nor the final home of mankind. That is a medieval confusion. Please see the link: "The Seven Edens". New Jerusalem on the new earth is where we will be with God forever.
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
Revelation 21:1-3 NIV
4) I'm not sure what you are driving at with the Judgment Seat of Christ comments. That evaluation of believers, the entire Church, will take place after the second advent, and not in heaven but on earth. This judgment is not to be confused with the Great White Throne judgment of unbelievers only (Rev.20:11ff.) or the "sheep and goats" judgment of Matthew 25 (the goats are the unbelievers, and that is the same as the Rev.20 Great White Throne judgment; the sheep are not the Church but the Millennial believers, the "friends of the Bride"; see the link). Many evangelical groups and theologies have made a mish-mash of these important issues, complicating things also by focusing on a pre-Tribulation "rapture" that does not exist. I would recommend at the very least reading your way through BB 2B: Eschatology to help get all these issues straightened out.

Re: "It Would Seem To Me From Being A Christian For 45 Years Through Many Tribulations, That God Will Bring All Of His Children Home Eventually". Would that longevity were sufficient. But there are many in evangelicaldom who have logged many chronological years as believers but who have learned but little. Salvation is by God's grace for all who believe (Eph.2:8-9), but only believers are saved (Jn.3:18); the implication being that when the Tribulation begins, that faith will be tested mightily. Those who have done due diligence in growing spiritually will be in much better shape to endure the pressures of that terrible time and make it through "with faith intact"; those who have not will be vulnerable to falling into the Great Apostasy (see the link). 

In Jesus,

Bob L.
http://ichthys.com/