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Believers in the World XXVI

Question #1:  
Hi Bob,

Been a while since I've emailed about the topic of marriage, but a recent conversation with one of our other friends made me curious. In multiple places on the site, you phrase things something like:

"As I always say, according to the Bible, 1) don't get married; 2) but if you do, don't get divorced; 3) but if you do, don't get remarried; etc."

My first question would be:

1) Why use a black and white negative imperative there, given 1 Corinthians 7:9 also says that "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion"?

In the past, we went over rather extensively the fact that some people ought to get married rather than trying to force themselves to stay single, and that trying to force it is worse than being realistic with themselves as to which "sort" of person they are (cf. 1 Corinthians 7:7; Matthew 19:11-12). (This is all paraphrasing our past discussions, unless I got something fundamentally wrong in that shorthand summary). Then, why word it as a command, if for some people, not getting married is in fact the problematic path for them specifically? Does what I am confused about make sense?

2) When 1 Corinthians 7:27 says to "not seek" a wife, what does that mean, exactly?

When our friend and I talked through it, he took the position that "not seeking" meant "not going out of your way to generate contact with people for the express purpose of dating/marriage" (or something along those lines).

So, for example, if you happen to come across people in your job, or in your church groups, etc. just over the normal course of participating in such things, then that is not "seeking." Because you would do these things even if you were not single and interested in marriage. And if someone in those groups seems like they might be a godly spouse, then that is more along the lines of God putting that person before you.

But any time you do something in order to (purpose clause) generate potential romantic relationships that you would not otherwise do aside from this purpose, that would be "seeking." So:

- Going places to meet people of the opposite gender that you wouldn't go to aside from this reason.
- Singles meet-ups/speed dating events/etc.
- Dating apps.

That would be the distinction.

And then once you've come into contact with someone, asking them onto a date to get to know them would not inherently be "seeking"...? Or is it?

Because if you say that it is, then how would one ever get married without running afoul of the "not seeking" bit of 1 Corinthians 7:27?

Our friend and I had decided that once you know someone from being around them in the course of other things, the next step to evaluating their long-term potential as a partner is getting to know them better, which means spending some alone time with them. And having dinner with someone you already know so as to better evaluate their potential is different than going and actively trying to set up dates all over the place from a pool of people you have no other connection to.

Does that sound right?

3) We talked for a while about the online aspect of this, given Laodicea's depressingly low number of serious believers in any one single geographic locality.

Meeting people as part of the course of normal online community interactions could follow similar logic as above regarding what is and is not "seeking." That is, if you participate in a group solely to meet potential marriage partners (rather than it being edifying/ministry/etc. = something you would do anyway), then that is the sort of thing we are warned against.

But what about posting a brief write up on your website/Facebook profile/whatever saying you are single, and here are the sorts of things you are interested in having in a spouse (in terms of what your ministry is, your preferences regarding number of children, things like that)? Is that "seeking"?

Our friend thought so, saying that you wouldn't do that normally/for any reason other than trying to get married, so that is that. I can see how that works logically speaking, but at the same time, is putting yourself out there/making your current single status known (a one and done thing) seeking in a present progressive sense?

Just trying to figure out how to best navigate the rocks and shoals here in a godly way, for reasons you are already familiar with -- that is, given my own desire to have a wife. Just want to go about ending up there in the godly way.

Your friend in Christ,
Response #1:   
Well, you have a point, of course.

I could have qualified point #1 and said something like, "ideally", or "all things being equal", or "if you are able to handle it", or something of the sort. Given everything Paul has to say in 1st Corinthians chapter seven (e.g., 1Cor.7:2; 1Cor.7:28a), that would be a more balanced and, arguably, more accurate way to put it, from one point of view.

However, we do know that we are down here on earth not for ourselves but for Jesus Christ and His Church. And not really for Jesus AND ourselves, much less for ourselves first AND Jesus second. And if we get married we are likely going to have our "interests divided" (1Cor.7:33-34). 

We also know that, rather than necessarily bringing only happiness, which one assumes is the reason why people get married, marriage also brings trouble/tribulation (1Cor.7:28b).

Not only that. From a purely antiseptic viewpoint, about half of marriages in this country end in divorce. That is not because of the happiness they created, obviously. 

Not only that. For a marriage to work, both parties have to compromise. Because people are unique. We all have our unique ticks and habits and personality quirks and ways of thinking and acting. Even when we are not talking about anything sinful; that means a lot of rough edges that are not going to match with the rough edges of the other person. And since each person has free will, naturally enough without a lot of compromise those non-messing gears will create a lot of friction . . . which has a tendency to get worse over time not better. If a person is a very mature believer, he/she may be willing to compromise a lot – and will probably need to. But if the other person is not a very mature believer, then the mature party will have to be willing to compromise much more than "a lot" to make up for it, and will also have to live with the fact that the other party is compromising less while "feeling" that they are compromising more.

This is not to say that there aren't happy marriages. We've all observed them . . . or at least we think we have. But behind the scenes it is not all bliss and joy, generally speaking. The Bible says marrieds "will have trouble", and the Bible is never wrong.

If I thought that my phrasing of the issue as "don't" had prevented anyone from getting married when they really wanted to get married, perhaps I would change it. But I know that if I qualified it ever so slightly by adding, as mentioned, something like "unless you are unable to remain single", then right off the bat anyone reading who wanted to get married would strike point #1 off the list immediately and without a further thought. Reading 1st Corinthians chapter seven carefully, and factoring in the things said above, I believe it is consistent with what the Bible teaches to counsel at least just that: "further thought". Because no one can be completely rational about this issue. We all would love to have that ideal relationship/marriage. I only know of one such perfect match myself. And it was perfect . . . until Eve was deceived and Adam disobeyed, and at that point perfection came to an end.

So to answer 1), "don't" ought to be the default setting, if only to avoid leaping before looking. Most people in the history of the world, including the vast majority of Christians, do eventually cross #1 off the list (but being a bit circumspect before doing so isn't the worst idea in the world).

On 2), I take "don't seek" as the same thing, essentially, as my point #1, "don't get married". So I wouldn't want to get overly legalistic about it and tie myself in knots about "am I seeking by going to this party/church social?" etc. If you want to get married, i.e., if you've crossed #1 off the list because you've decided you need to be married, e.g., then doing something positive about it makes sense. What you do and how you do it are matters of personal application (keeping in mind Col.3:17, e.g.). 

On 3), as mentioned above, if you decide you're going to get married, once you've weighed it all out (along the lines of the process Paul outlines in 1Cor.7:36), then taking action makes sense. And, again, I would not want to play games here. Admit to yourself that this is what you are doing if that is what you are doing. The "don't seek" is the same as my "don't get married" because if you seek, you are likely to find, after all. Again, how you do it is a personal thing. We know, of course, that in the ancient world, to include communities of believers, parents usually took care of this problem for their children by arranging marriages for them. But this is a far different world. And marriage is a far more delicate thing (i.e., divorce going from a minuscule percent to half the population). The potential we have to ruin our own lives is exponentially greater on this score. So while I wouldn't want to make any rules or give any specific advice on this, I would say that the more a person hands this matter over to the Lord (through prayer and trust and patience), the better the likely outcome.

Scripture is full of examples of precipitous conduct being regretted on the one hand; on the other, decisiveness when one is sure of one's ground in the Spirit is to be commended (1Cor.7:36-37). So it always comes back to discerning God's will for our lives, our willingness to follow, and having faith and confidence that what we are doing is what He wants us to do (Rom.14:23).

I have been praying for you on this issue (as I do for others who have shared this concern). If it hasn't happened and isn't happening, that may be in part of function of the times we are at, or it may just be that the Lord's timing is not proceeding as rapidly as we would like – no doubt for good reason. That happens a lot, after all. How long did Abraham have to wait for a son?

Re: "Just want to go about ending up there in the godly way." I know that, my friend, and I appreciate it. Keeping up the prayer.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #2:  
Hi Bob,

Thanks for this. It helped a lot. I think in a practical sense, I could probably just leave things here and get by fine in drawing my own personal applications, but I've always wanted to understand this chapter of 1 Corinthians 7 more deeply, so I may ask some less-related follow-on questions in pursuit of such a thing. No rush on any of this.

1) I think some of it is just seeing the forest for the trees. Like, picking verses out here and there from this chapter is well and good, but how does the entire chapter fit together as a whole? What exactly is Paul addressing in his comments (something the Corinthians wrote him about... but what was that, exactly)? Why does he adopt the focus he does/to what end? What position is he arguing against? I can't remember if I've asked before in so many words, but do you have anything on 1 Corinthians 7 as an entire chapter (verse-by-verse)? I don't think so, but I'm open to suggestions.

2) Do you think it is accurate to portray the general idea as something like: While we could say that Paul's general point is "don't get married [if you can successfully bear such a thing], because marriage has unavoidable disadvantages in some respects", the reason we might not add the -- completely true and biblically taught -- qualification in brackets when we mention this is because most people tend to be on the extreme of not giving this enough thought, rather than giving it too much. So doing it this way makes people think more deeply than they would likely do otherwise. At least that's the idea. It also mirrors Paul lack of explicit qualification in 1 Corinthians 7 itself, even though we understand this same qualification to be there by implication as well (based on the understood consequences of 1 Corinthians 7:2 and 1 Corinthians 7:7 and 1 Corinthians 7:9 in practice).

Is that the gist?

3) I think it is a true statement that Paul never portrays marriage as in any way positive in 1 Corinthians 7: He says if people cannot control themselves, then getting married is better than burning with passion (1 Corinthians 7:9). At best, this makes marriage comparatively better than something decidedly bad. That is different from calling it "good" (although it is also different from directly calling it "not good" or "bad"). He says getting married is "not sin" (1 Corinthians 7:28a, 36). But there is never anything more positive than those statements, as far as I can see. Furthermore, Paul criticizes the state in multiple ways, telling people directly or indirectly to avoid it: He uses an actual imperative (μὴ ζὴτει γυναικα) to tell people to not seek a wife (or husband, going the other way). It's not phrased as a suggestion, but a command. He says that those who are married will (inevitably) face tribulation (1 Corinthians 7:28b).
He says that being married (inevitably) draws one's attention away from the Lord's affairs (1 Corinthians 7:32-34). 

By way of contrast, Paul says remaining unmarried is "good" (1 Corinthians 7:8, 26), and even stronger, he says that not getting married is "better" than getting married (1 Corinthians 7:38), and that a widow will be "happier" if she remains unmarried after the death of her husband (1 Corinthians 7:40). And that brings us to the obvious problem of how to interpret all these statements together.

I've always struggled to properly articulate how exactly one goes about reconciling all the statements so that the chapter doesn't somehow teach that getting married is always worse for every single believer regardless of circumstances. We've been over this issue enough over the years now that I know neither of us agree with it (and I've accepted it on faith long ago)... but what then of all the statements in this passage that are so one-sided on the issue? How does one do a good job properly explaining it?

Every time I come across a point of view that argues that "everybody can remain single, if they just try hard enough, so celibate people are just better believers", my hackles rise, and I know it feels all wrong.

1 Corinthians 7:9 -- they might say this is a matter of people not exercising free will as ideally as they ought. If only they would, they would not burn with passion so, and thus have to saddle themselves with the practical disadvantages of marriage, as outlined in 1 Corinthians 7:28b and 1 Corinthians 7:32-34.

Matthew 19:11-12 - they might say that everyone would be "able to accept" this statement if only they exercised their free will completely properly, and that the "word" of verse 11 "would be given" to absolutely all those who wanted it/asked for it. (Again, gated solely by human free will).
Etc.

I know all that inherently feels wrong, via spiritual common sense. But I also know that the passage says what it says, and you can't ignore it flippantly. For example, even if getting married is better for many (even most) people simply due to how God made them, then:

Even so, they will still have their focus split when they marry (1 Corinthians 7:32-34)
Even so, they will still face troubles they would not otherwise face when they marry (1 Corinthians 7:28b)

Those things don't ever cease being true. But the question is just, well, would the person truly be better off single? Or would they be so swamped by loneliness and sexual sin (etc.) that it would be even worse?

If you take the entire chapter as Paul addressing only "those who can accept it" (cf. Matthew 19:11-12), then that neatly solves the interpretive issues by making all of the one-sided statements only conditionally apply to those who are able to bear them. The problem is, that is a pretty huge interpretive leap, is it not? Can you really get there simply from 1 Corinthians 7:2 and 1 Corinthians 7:7 and 1 Corinthians 7:9?

I'd be happy to hear any insight you might have into what exactly our guiding interpretive approach ought to be when considering all these statements in 1 Corinthians 7 that are harsh towards marriage (especially the comparatives of 1 Corinthians 7:38 and 1 Cporinthians 7:40). It's not so much that I see any specific contradictions, as that I just find it hard to understand in general, given that Paul does not appear to give any form of qualification/limitation of scope in the context itself. At least not directly.

4) What about these statements -- in terms of inspiration, is there any difference between the words of Paul, and the words of the Lord?

Verse 10: "But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord..."
Verse 12: "But to the rest I say, not the Lord..."
Verse 25: "Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy..."
Verse 40: "But in my opinion she is happier if she remains as she is; and I think that I also have the Spirit of God..."

Is everything in the chapter doctrinally prescriptive (no difference in Paul's opinions vs. the Lord's words), or do any of these things "mean" anything in a practical sense?

Thanks for bearing with me in all this.

Your friend in Jesus,
Response #2:   
My pleasure, my friend.

1-2) As to "how does the entire chapter fit together as a whole?", it seems clear to me that Paul is addressing various questions that the Corinthians had about marriage (and of course ones we all have as well) and also attempting to correct a number of abuses. The synopsis list I generally provide, in my opinion, sums up the main points that a believer today with questions about marriage and divorce and remarriage might have (and I can confirm this aspect from very many emails over the years). Other than that, I wouldn't want to try and squeeze passages that may not seem to fit the simplified picture into it into a Procrustean mold. Passages we don't understand or don't fully understand can be our best friends, if we are willing to let the Word speak to us – as opposed to us speaking to it by telling it what it must mean because it has to conform to our model. The latter is traditional theology; the former is good Bible teaching. So I'm happy to take verses/passages individually, but reluctant to over-characterize. "The trees" are the thing; if we get to know them, the real picture of the "forest" will eventually emerge, but not the other way around. If we develop a mental picture of the forest irrespective of the trees (or most of them), it will never be a true one and will resist our inspection of individual trees thereafter. That's the only way you can explain the evangelical defense of the pre-Trib rapture fallacy, for example.

3) A good synopsis. I would add as important, "the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none", etc. (1Cor.7:29-31).

As to reconciling the statements, I honestly don't think it's necessary. We get from the chapter what we see with our own eyes: most people want to be married and most people need to be married and most people will get married. Paul is trying to throw a little cold water of reality on any idea of romance (a Greek invention, after all, at least in terms of its literary manifestation) and happiness in marriage. If some young man came to me and asked me about joining the military, I would not sugar-coat it. In fact, I usually say something like, "The service is great for helping you figure out what you really want to do with your life. Unfortunately, you are likely to be helped to have that figured out two weeks after enlisting and then it'll be four to six years before you can get on with it". 

Similarly, Paul is not going to say anything untrue about marriage; he is going to let his congregation know that it's not all "skittles and beer". That is fair. That is blessed. But that does not mean that he's telling anyone not to do it. I put things the way I do without apostolic authority in order to try to accomplish in an uninspired sentence what he gives us in an entire, inspired chapter, namely, to slow some people down. Because while a marriage which is from God can be tolerable, one which is not from Him is most likely going to be intolerable. 

That is not to say everyone is better or better off not being married. As I have said many times, someone who needs to be married is likely better off and more productive married . . . to the right person at the right time. But no one is better off married to the wrong person at the wrong time. Most people need to be married and/or will be better off married – even if hypothetically the reverse would be true if they were not who they are – but then they ARE who they are, after all. However, we need not to forget to add the important caveat here: married to the right person at the right time. In the ancient world, this didn't come up as much on account of arranged marriages; and because of the patriarchal constitution of ancient societies, people were forced to "make it work" more or less, even if the marriage was far from ideal. These things not being the case today, "don't" is my default, because at least that will lead some to be a little careful about ending up with the wrong person at the wrong time . . . at least I hope so.

4) Yes, "everything in the chapter doctrinally prescriptive". So why does Paul distinguish? No doubt because of the added weight that attributing particular principles to the Lord Himself provides. Also, importantly, in all of these verses Paul merely "says" or "gives his opinion" rather than issuing a command. This, and many other facets of the chapter, demonstrate that a lot of this has to do with informing his readers' application – that is, getting them to approach this issue in a more godly and circumspect way – rather than issuing immutable commands. That is the gist of my "don't" too: I'm only suggesting an application that ought to be the default (unless, "really need to" plus "right person / right time"). Trying to make rules out of this chapter is always problematic, and in many cases where this has been tried, I've seen it result in horrible legalism (which has perverted what the scripture actually says).

So, want rules? I'll explain the verses and passages asked about instead. Want the gist? That's my "don't" synopsis. 

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #3:  
Hi Bob,

"That is not to say everyone is better or better off not being married. As I have said many times, someone who needs to be married is likely better off and more productive married . . . to the right person at the right time. But no one is better off married to the wrong person at the wrong time. Most people need to be married and/or will be better off married – even if hypothetically the reverse would be true if they were not who they are – but then they ARE who they are, after all."

I think this is an excellent way of wording it. My issue is figuring out how exactly 1 Corinthians 7 meshes with this concept in the specifics.

Too vague? How about this -- are we interpreting all these verses/passages as essentially something like this, in practice? (Bits added by me are in brackets).

1) 1 Corinthians 7:17-24

"Each person should live in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called him, [unless it is God's will for them to change their circumstances for some reason]". This is only a general principle/the default position, not a rule.

Why is the general principle true? Because most of the time circumstances do not greatly affect our ability to do what we ought spiritually, so focusing on them rather than spiritual growth is counterproductive, and shifts our attention off of what is actually important.

2) 1 Corinthians 7:27

"Are you pledged to a woman? Do not seek to be released [unless you are called to such by God]. Are you free from such a commitment? Do not look for a wife [unless you are called to such by God]." This is only a general principle/the default position, not a rule.

Why is the general principle true? Because again, our default should be keeping the focus on spiritual growth, and both of these things would be changes of circumstances that it is improper to put the focus on.

The fact that Paul tells those that are pledged to someone not to break it off before marriage shows, in part, that it is not marriage per se in his crosshairs, right? Because otherwise he'd counsel no marriage for them either.

3) 1 Corinthians 7:38

"He who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does better [unless he is the sort that needs to marry, and this is the right person and right time, in which case he would actually be better off married]. This is only a general principle/the default position, not a rule.

Why the general principle? Because:

Marriage brings with it troubles (1 Corinthians 7:28b)
Marriage brings with it increased distraction from the Lord's affairs (1 Corinthians 7:32-34)
And there will not truly be any good compensations in it unless it is actually the right person at the right time

So it is true that it is a worse choice than continuing to remain single the vast, vast majority of time. Hence default position. But not a rule.

4) 1 Corinthians 7:40

"In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is [unless she is the sort that needs to marry, and this is the right person and right time, in which case she would actually be better off married]. This is only a general principle/the default position, not a rule.

Similar to the above, this is true as a general principle because:

Marriage brings with it troubles (1 Corinthians 7:28b)
And there will not truly be any good compensations in it unless it is actually the right person at the right time

So, as a general rule, marriage will bring more unhappiness than happiness in the vast majority of possible cases. Hence default position. But not a rule.

I am trying to be certain I am not reading things into the text that are not there (so-called eisegesis); that is what I am trying to avoid. Especially since I have skin in this game/a horse in this race/etc. I am not exactly unbiased when it comes to the issue.

So... all of the above makes sense to me, but is it going too far in interpretation?

Thanks for bearing with me on this one.

Yours in Christ,
Response #3:  
I think we have to take the passages one at a time because Paul puts things differently in each case, and it does make a difference what he actually says.

1) Paul says "it is good" to remain as is – not that one must. In fact, when it comes to slavery, for example, he says it's preferable if one has the chance to become free (just not to worry about it if that is not an option), but is clear that it is a bad idea to sell oneself into slavery (even in a noble cause): "Do not become slaves of men" (1Cor.7:23). So, yes, this principle is stating what is best – and then giving advice on specific circumstances which, in terms of marriage, my "progressive list" seeks to summarize, i.e., "best not to do X, but if you do, then best not to do Y", etc. One question re: "Because most of the time circumstances do not greatly affect our ability to do what we ought spiritually . . .": the "not" is a typo? If not, I'm confused.

2) This verse somewhat vindicates my "don't", even though I really "don't" mean it absolutely as a scriptural principle of necessity . . . because Paul immediately qualifies the imperative in the next verse: "Don't do it . . . but if you do you have not sinned". The combination of these two leads me to the same conclusions we've been coming to, namely, "You're probably going to get married, but think twice before you do so because there are advantages to being single and disadvantages to being married, even in the case of a good marriage – not to mention if you pick the wrong person and the wrong time".

3-4) Agreed. Consonant with: "I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord" (1Cor.7:35 NIV).

I don't think you're reading too much into it at all. Some things are rules; some things are guidelines; some things are observations. I don't think anyone can read this chapter carefully and come away less hesitant about marriage rather than more so – and that, in my view, is a good part of Paul's overall point.

That's an important perspective. When we are lonely or otherwise very eager to have a partner, emotional creatures that we are, we are prone to be deceived and/or to be deceiving ourselves. Lots of prayer and care (about our actions) is advisable if we are interested in getting married. As with many things in life, God can do it for us, but we are apt to mess things up if we are not careful and intent of moving things along ourselves irrespective of what the Lord wants. Remember Hagar?

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #4:  
Hi Bob,

0) To handle this first:

One question re: "Because most of the time circumstances do not greatly affect our ability to do what we ought spiritually . . .": the "not" is a typo? If not, I'm confused.

I had in fact meant to include the not there, though upon some reflection, I see how my wording isn't really the best.

What I had been trying to say (although I see how it didn't come through well) was that whether we are slave or free, Jew or Greek, male or female, married or unmarried... no matter our circumstances, we are still able to follow God, if we but turn our focus onto him. But if we let any of these circumstances consume our focus rather than keeping it upon spiritual growth -- if we get concerned about "where we are" or our current state -- well, then we are worrying about things that truly don't matter. That is how I take the main thrust of Paul's meaning here---namely, that rather than getting particularly bothered by one's state, no matter what it is, be content to serve God where you are.

That doesn't mean we can't seek to make logical choices (as in obtaining freedom from slavery, as Paul says), but that was what I was trying to get at as the motivation behind "why" Paul is saying to content oneself with the situation in which one finds oneself -- and even more than that, to commit oneself to spiritual growth therein, rather than making it all about changing one's circumstances before bothering to look towards spiritual growth.

More on (1) and (2)

"So, yes, this principle is stating what is best -- and then giving advice on specific circumstances which, in terms of marriage, my "progressive list" seeks to summarize, i.e., "best not to do X, but if you do, then best not to do Y", etc."

I'm wondering if this is maybe just a case where you and I are called to teach in different ways (at least in our approach to how we word things here), giving the body of Christ that diversity in teaching approach that is to the benefit of all.

I started this whole conversation because using the black and white "don't..." without making it clear that it is a general principle not an absolute rule just seems... well, not like the complete truth. And of course, you aren't saying that it is in fact a black and white rule. Any interested party can email you as I have, and get the clarification that this is basically to sternly warn people off of leaping before looking when it comes to marriage.

It's just that every time we use superlatives like in this sentence of yours I quoted, there's this part of me that wants to interject "but it is not always the best for everyone; if there a person who is the sort that needs to marry, and they found the right person, and this is the right time, then it is actually best for them to marry and not remain single, even though that is usually what is best." I'm not trying to be pedantic in that. It's just that using the superlative in the one direction without giving any hint that this is actually a "qualified" or "conditional" superlative (i.e., rather than a global absolute) -- well, can't that lead to misunderstandings and misapprehensions about what the Bible teaches on the matter?

It can certainly lead to questions, as in this exchange between us. And maybe that's not a bad thing at all. I just don't think I understand why we can't teach the main point -- "marriage has all these disadvantages such that the default position should be to avoid it; avoiding it is generally the best path" -- while also saying that "but since most will need to marry eventually, then God will, in His due time, and if it is in His Will, provide the right person and the right time to make it happen, and this is the better path than staying single for those people, but only when all those conditions are met at that time." Like, if both things are true, why not teach both things to give that full and complete picture?

Will people try to use it as a fig leaf and say that every relationship they have is the right person and the right time (one after the other in direct sequence, each one being "right for real this time")? I suppose. But then can't we address that head on and say something to the effect of "even if you think you are in that position, the wording of this chapter is so very strong that you better think, think again, and then think some more before proceeding, even so." Is that not doing our due diligence as teachers in counseling people about it?

Let me try using an analogy (this seems reasonably apples-to-apples to me, although feel free to tell me what you think about it as a comparison): how we talk about going to modern local churches in our era of Laodicea. It's another area where what is commonly perceived as making sense ("of course you should be involved in a local group of Christians"; cf. "of course you should get married") and what probably actually makes sense ("you need to think long and hard and use your discernment to try and make sure this local church involvement at this time is truly the right path"; cf. "you need to think long and hard and use your discernment to try and make sure this marriage at this time is truly the right path") are two decidedly different things.

It is a true statement that in general, it is best not to get involved with local churches in our day, given the prevalent lukewarmness that permeates nearly every option one might come across.
So do we tell people "don't go to local churches, since they are lukewarm and will put a damper on your spiritual progress"? Or "It is best spiritually not to get involved with local churches"? (Key point: one sided, worded in such a way that these statements could be taken to be global absolutes, under a certain interpretation).
Well, what if they so happen to be living by a local fellowship that bucks the trend, and is a truly good option? I'd like to think the in-person Bible study I'm getting close to launching will be one such option, for example, and I know at least one of your seminary colleagues has a brick-and-mortar church, right?
So it is that it is best to avoid local churches... until it isn't. Just like it is best to avoid marriage... until it isn't. (For some people, at least).
People in both situations are vastly more likely to try and make excuses for things they ought not (i.e., marrying the wrong person and/or marrying at the wrong time; going to the wrong local fellowship) rather than being biased in the direction of not getting involved. That is certainly true.
But does that mean we don't teach that exceptions can and do exist? My leaning, I believe, would be to sternly warn people off of the idea and give them all the reasons for nursing a hefty dose of skepticism, while at the same time saying that exceptions can and do exist, so that avoiding local churches is not always the best option. Like, making that clear upfront, to head off any potential for misunderstanding.
And then when people come back and say "well my local church is different; I promise" (just how nobody thinks the folks in Congress are doing a good job at all... except for the people from their own district), well we can again hit with them with the same sort of line as we'd give to those swearing up and down that every relationship they have is with the right person at the right time: "even if you think you have found the diamond in the rough in terms of local fellowship, even so you better think, think again, and then think some more before proceeding."

I don't know. I'm not really trying to convince you of anything here or say you need to word anything different. I guess I wonder if you could just try explaining to me again what merits you see in adopting this one-sided starkness of presentation (i.e., the series of imperative "don'ts" without any qualification mentioned in introducing it), as compared to an approach that mentions in the same breath as the general rule that exceptions to said rule can and do exist. Because they in fact can and do in reality.

Thanks again for going through all of this with me. I think, if I'm being honest, I'd had niggling questions about this chapter for many years now, but I feel like I've got it all pinned down a lot better now. I really do appreciate it!

Your friend in Christ,
Response #4:  
0) OK, thanks for the clarification (well put).

1/2) Right. I'm not crazy about the analogy (too many differences to be able to draw firm conclusions from it IMHO). So let me put it this way: I'm not making rules. I'm trying to sum up what the Bible has to say (and Paul in particular) about the issue of marriage generally, not that it's wrong, not that it's unnecessary, just that in the BOAPW, if one is single, one should stay single (as the default), for a variety of reasons (positive and negative as we have discussed). 

I think this is important to say, because in Evangelical Christendom generally today, getting married and having a family is almost de rigueur to the point that there is something wrong with you if you are not on that track or trying to get on it ASAP. Also very important, though not part of your set of questions, since so many marriages fail (for so many reasons many of which are if not unique to our modern world at least much more prevalent than in the past), the issue of divorce and remarriage is one of the reasons (actually mostly the reason) that I have boiled things down to this list, i.e., to make it clear that biblically, while staying single after a divorce likewise goes back to the "stay that way" default, getting remarried is no more a sin than getting married in the first place. That too is at odds with evangelicaldom for the most part (they may not say it, but they definitely communicate it). I would also add that present day Christendom has a tendency to stigmatize divorce, not making any allowance for those who essentially had no choice in the matter (i.e., the other party pushed it or pushed them out).

To get personal, we have known each other for a while now (albeit not face to face). From everything I have seen I would say that you are not cut out for being a bachelor your entire life. Not that you couldn't "hack it" or anything like that (I'm very sure you could). Just that life would be better for you as a married man rather than a single one (from a lot of points of view). That's my two cents, anyway. So I certainly don't only not begrudge you wanting to get married and have been praying for some time for you to meet the right woman. Of course, that ultimately depends upon God's will, and we can never know what will happen tomorrow . . . or even if are going to be given a tomorrow. But, all other things being equal, I think this would be a good thing for you, and I don't think that violates anything I've written about marriage or is inconsistent with the Bible in any way.

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #5:  
Hello Dr.,

In your DropBox you should find the following audio file:

BB1-Pt.2 – The Persons pf God pt.2 – Conclusion

This finishes up BB1, I wanted to get this to you before Sunday so you could have the complete file of BB1 pt.1&2 posted if you wanted to do so.

[omitted]

I hope your weekend is a pleasant one Sir. I’m beginning BB2 this weekend and should have the first installment to you soon. Thank you for the prayers for work, the Lord has blessed me there as well, I’ll get you up to speed in a future email.

All the best,

Rev.22:20
Response #5:   
First, file received, uploaded and tested AOK, so now BB 1 is complete. It really does sound terrific (would that I had voice half as good!).

Second . . . wow. And I thought I had money problems over the years. How you survived that, and how you maintained your faith and your integrity through all that, well, let's just say you have my enormous respect and awe, my friend. I don't think there is anyone in the world who would feel that paying back six for one (and more when all is said and done), is anything approaching anyone's concept of "fair". And yet you've got no bitterness. You are a true Christian warrior, my friend! My hat is off to you. 

It seems as if the money and debt crush and crunch is hitting more and more of our brothers and sisters lately (or I'm just being made more aware of it), and we haven't even hit a recession or a depression or the Tribulation yet. I do know that the Lord tells us that we don't have anything to worry about (Matt.6:25-34), and elsewhere we are told that we should be satisfied if we have food and clothing (1Tim.6:8).
Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.” So we say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can mere mortals do to me?"
Hebrews 13:5-6 NIV
Not loving money is one thing. Not letting your faith slip when the wolves are at the door day and night is another thing. It takes a special degree of spiritual maturity and courage to do what you did.

I rejoice in the fact that there is no money in New Jerusalem – and no debts either. Praise to the One who delivered us from the one debt none of us could ever pay ourselves, our sins washed away by the blood of Jesus Christ!

I would dearly like to post some or all of this, but it's all very personal, so I leave it to you as to what and how much if any.

On the other issue, nothing is impossible for the Lord – for those who are trusting in Him and allowing Him to work in their lives as you have done and are doing. I'm keeping you in my daily prayers for all these things.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #6:  
Hello Dr.,

In your DropBox you should find the following audio file:

BB2-Pt.1 – The Purpose, Creation and Nature of Angels – The Limits of Satan’s World Rule

Looks like it may be a little slower going with these than I originally thought. Just to clarify, I was wrong in my last email. The platform offers 6,000,000 credits per month, not characters. A single character cost 20 credits. There are 5,353,224 characters in my edited BB document including spaces. So, worst case scenario it will take a few extra months to complete the whole document. We’ll see. No problem though, The Lord was aware of all this and however it turns out will be fine. We do the best we can with what He gives us. 

Thank you for all the kind words in your last email. All I can say is that I play the hand I’m dealt. God allowed the situation, gave me the work, health and His grace to get through that chapter of life as well as every other day. I can’t claim I was a shining example of anything to anybody then or now, just trying to do my best with what He gives/allows for me. If you think it may be helpful you certainly can use our correspondence any time you wish. 

Hope you are well Sir. Got you in prayer daily and thank you for yours. I’ll be in touch soon.

All the best,

Rev.22:20
Response #6:  
It's no rush! I just appreciate to the bottom of my heart what you've done / are doing with this, my friend! It's a great help (I NEVER would have gotten to anything like this myself).

Well, you're a "shining example" to me! And the fact that you're humble about it is just icing on the cake. Yes, we "do what we can do" and leave it to the Lord to figure it all out after the fact (1Cor.4:5). But I'm pretty sure you have every right to have confidence that you're doing more down here than just "earning interest" (Matt.25:27; Lk.19:23).

Keeping you in my daily prayers, my friend – and thanks also for your willingness to share.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #7:  
Dear Teacher,

Please forgive me, Sir. I thought I had told you back in July that the visa appeal was successful and her visa finally approved. I just scanned my emails to you since then and saw that I didn't mention. The visa was issued at the end of July, so we were planning for her to leave at the end of September. She arrived in Cardiff, Wales around half past noon WAT yesterday. I'm very sorry I forgot to give you that update, Sir.

Thank you for always praying for us.

One update -- [omitted]

We're keeping you in our prayers here, and we are rejoicing in the Lord for His preservation of you from all the destruction and trouble from the hurricane.

Your student in Jesus,
Response #7:   
No worries – I'm happy to have the news!

I think it's great that you are committing to moving to the states! In terms of "knowing", at some point we have to step out of the boat in faith. We pray, and if God the Holy Spirit confirms things for us in our hearts, then we go forward and don't look backward. If He has convinced you in your heart that this is the best course, then He will work it out for you (which of course does not mean the absence of a lot of effort on your part).

I'll be keeping you guys in my prayers on this.

Thanks for YOUR prayers! No flooding or trees down here in L-ville . . . just a lot of rain.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #8:  
I should have told you much sooner. I honestly don't remember how I ended up not telling you because I try to tell you these things first before I tell even our group. I suspect that because of how quickly I can text on Signal, I probably told them first and forgot that I hadn't emailed you about it.
[omitted]
 I want to work and get to teaching the Bible too. So, thank you very much for praying for us, Sir. We are leaning heavily on your prayers.

Praise God for His deliverance of you once again!

Your student in Jesus,
Response #8:  
I did have some idea that there were a lot of "ins and outs" involved. But people do manage to do it – even without the Lord's help. So I know that He is capable of doing this for you since He is the One leading you to do it in the first place. Doesn't mean it will be easy. If you know anything worthwhile in this life that's easy, please let me know ASAP. From the moment the Lord turned me around to the launch of Ichthys was twenty years, almost to the day, e.g., with a considerable amount of "rough sledding" in between.

I am praying for you on this, and thanks much for the details. All good to know.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #9:  
I'm following industry gossip and news about AI. There's a lot of "it's rubbish: never going to replace even junior programmers" and "it's so good, we might soon have no programmers" going on about it. It's clearly a useful tool for at least generating code that a reasonably good programmer can edit to do what they need done. The consensus appears to be that they are not good enough to be trusted to make finished products yet, but you can use them to cut out some of the initial drudgery of creating a first draft.

After learning how to build full applications, it's a useful tool that I intend to learn to use too.
Response #9:   
That's interesting and also the vibe I've picked up. On the business news today that had a company making full-sized humanoid robot assistants who are "AI powered" and can interact with people on a human level. The one they had on the show totally bombed when asked an actual human-type question ("So, do you plan to get yourself promoted to the board yourself"); it froze halfway through a sentence (host: "Maybe one of the board members pulled the plug"). 

With these sorts of things and in job seeking, sometimes just "talking the lingo" is what opens doors, I'm guessing.

Keeping you in my daily prayers . . . for the big shift!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #10:  
Dear Teacher,

It is indeed. I am often thinking now (since we just came to it in our nightly Bible readings a couple of nights ago) that it was quite the miracle that God made Absalom unable to appreciate Ahithophel's advice for the great counsel that it was just for David's sake. It gives me hope that a normal and even sensible system can be bent to accommodate us if that is something that the Lord wanted to do. I am asking Him to do exactly that for us in this matter.

Thank you so much for always praying for us and for praying for us in this matter specifically, Sir. We are praying every day for you too.

Your student in Jesus,
Response #10:   
Another good example is Joseph, who was taken from the prison house to rule over all of Egypt in the blink of an eye . . . once it was God's timing for that to happen for him. Until then, he had a rough time and it must have been a great test of faith to trust in God's deliverance under those circumstances. But it DID come . . . and in a very big way.

Keeping you guys in my prayers. Thanks for yours!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #11:  
Dear Teacher,

How are you doing, Sir? 

I'm sure you have been told you already how we're all faring healthwise.

I have some news: 
[omitted]
Wouldn't it be nice if I could talk to someone who has walked in these shoes before and managed to be a good pastor-teacher?

Always deeply grateful for your prayers, Sir, and keeping you in ours,

Your student in Jesus,
Response #11:   
I'll keep praying for you all on the health front.

On the immigration strategy, you know so much more about it than I do, I'd be wary of giving any sort of advice from my relative ignorance. In terms of ministry support, however, we can't expect to have a situation which is not a struggle. Even those who are supported in denominations or independent churches do not have a trouble-free base from which to study and teach the Word of God. Congregations who support pastors have expectations for them to do all manner of things which have nothing to do with "job #1", and these additional duties can, if not kept somewhat at arm's length, eat up all time and energy. Independent ministries that are supported by donations probably never receive enough and never in a consistent flow. 

Whatever route we go we can expect the troubles of daily life and the opposition of the evil one to follow. If we accept that, then we choose what seems best for us to be able to maximize our effort for the Lord and then do our best to balance everything else. We are all fighting on multiple "fronts", and pastor-teachers most of all. We have a family, we have a homestead, we have a livelihood, we have health to maintain, we have finances to balance, we have the world around us and the unexpected troubles it often brings . . . and we have the need to maintain our own spiritual growth even as we endeavor to help others grow. 

This life is a fight, and striving to earn the three crowns, especially for one with the teaching gift, was never going to be easy. But it is doable – God helping us.
Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom. He gives strength to the weary and increases the power of the weak. Even youths grow tired and weary, and young men stumble and fall; but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.
Isaiah 40:28-31 NIV
Keeping you and your family in my daily prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #12:  
Hello Dr. Luginbill,

Here is the Hawk Eye again, and I have found a scripture that does not exist.

In your teaching of Eschatology is the following:
f. They are subject to a special code of conduct: Just as our Lord adopted a “servant life-style” throughout His earthly life (Phil.2:5-10; cf. Is.42; 49; 52-53; Matt. 20:28; Lk.22:27; Jn.1:1 with 1:14; 5:18; 10:30; 14:9; 17:5; 2Cor.8:9; 20:28; Rm.8:3; 9:5; 1Tim.2:5-6; 3:16; Heb.2:9-18; 10:5-10), so the ministry of the 144,000 will require extreme commitment:
The second scripture underlined above, of 2 Cor. which is 2 Cor. 20:28, does not exist? What might you have meant?

But perhaps you have already corrected it? Or, am I reading it wrong?

Thanks for the teaching, it is excellent.

Blessings and Love and grace and mercy be with you always.

Your friend,
Response #12:   
Here is what I'm showing in the HTML:

f. They are subject to a special code of conduct: Just as our Lord adopted a "servant life-style" throughout His earthly life (Phil.2:5-10; cf. Is.42; 49; 52-53; Matt.20:28; Lk.22:27; Jn.1:1 with Jn.1:14; 5:18; 10:30; 14:9; 17:5; 20:28; 2Cor.8:9; Rm.8:3; 9:5; 1Tim.2:5-6; 3:16; Heb.2:9-18; 10:5-10), so the ministry of the 144,000 will require extreme commitment:

Maybe you accidentally moved the John reference? The right reference pops up when I highlight it with Reftagger.

HOWEVER, you are RIGHT that this mistake was still present in the PDF and RTF files. I have now changed those and uploaded them as well. The HMTL (i.e., webpage) files are sometimes better serviced; in the past few years, I've also done a better job with "version control" and keeping things consistent between all formats, so this is probably an old error that was long ago corrected on the web version but never made it to the others.

Keep your eyes peeled!

Your help is greatly appreciated, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #13:  
[omitted]
Response #13:  
I'm very sorry to hear that you are still badly "under the weather". I have been and will continue praying for you.

I also always counsel Christians to avoid seeing unpleasant developments in their lives as necessarily being divine discipline. For one thing, our Lord deals with us in a proportional way. If we run a red light on the way home and arrive to find our house has been destroyed by a tornado, it would be a mistake, in my view, to connect the two . . . especially in the case of those who are otherwise striving to do what the Lord wants us to do in this life. All mature believers are tried and tested in order to refine their faith; recognizing and accepting that is part of the process of taking things to the "next level".
Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith, that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this. For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.
1st Thessalonians 3:1-4 NKJV
It is important to try to "count it all joy" even when we are dealing with such things (Jas.1:2-5), and that is not the stuff of the spiritually immature. No one actually enjoys suffering, after all. But we can focus on the things we have a right to be joyful about even in the midst of worldly reverses. And we can be at peace even if we are only seeing our joy "on the other side" at the moment (link). All of this, whatever "this" is for us at any given moment, will come to an end soon enough. And on the other side is only gain – for those of us who are truly living for Jesus Christ (Phil.1:21).

Thanks for your prayers for me too, my friend – especially under the circumstances.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #14:  
Thanks to you Bob as always my friend!

I have been praying to the Lord just now and you know how He searches our hearts and tests our reins.

Jer 17:10
“I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve.”

I have had to be really honest with Him and it has led me to confess where I have been going wrong. I have lost some of my zeal and I have been worn down quite a lot. This is a really bad place to allow myself to get to. I have also spent most of this year not doing what the Lord wants me to do. I have spent this year doing what I wanted to do instead and it has been a disaster.
The truth is (and you have echoed this to me over and over again) that I have spent a huge amount of time trying to help those who didn't want to be helped and did not want to know about the Lord and His Word. I saw people around me who were obviously suffering and assumed they would respond to help and the witness of the life and would then turn to the Lord. I was wrong. I have underestimated the hardness of heart that unbelievers can have. If I looked back on my own life before I came to the Lord, there were many instances where I should have turned to Him again and again. I went through so much hardship and terrible times which would have completely broken other people but to my shame, I kept going. I thought this was a good thing. The world (Satan) tells us to dust ourselves off and to keep going no matter what is thrown at us and this is seen as strength and virtue. How can it be virtue if all the person is doing is going back to unbelief?

I will use a personal example as I know you will redact this before publishing...With __ for example. He has just gone through cancer treatment and it must be one of the worst experiences a person can go through. He has gone through all this largely alone and less than a year after losing his wife. He barely took a day off work and never complained about it. __'s family now think he is an amazing person of strength and resilience but is this something to be commended if it doesn't bring someone to the Lord? If a person hardens themselves so they don't grieve a great loss and are not shaken by a major disease, is this a good thing? In society/the world, this is seen as a great strength, a great form of stoicism to never let life's sufferings crush you and to never be humbled.

I think that is the key sentence 'never be humbled'. This is a terrible place to be in when a person refuses to be humbled. This is praised by the world but does not honour God at all. It is all about boasting in the flesh and glorifying the flesh.

I used to be like this. I used to see myself as being able to be strong to let tragedy roll over me and keep fighting but I was an unbeliever then. I refused to be kept down, refused to be humbled. Ultimately though that hardness of heart and stiffness of neck leads to the lake of fire. Even the words 'fight the good fight' can be misused in this context. The fight we are fighting is to remain in the faith, THE faith and to be true to it, to be faithful. It is not about unbelievers overcoming suffering by hardening themselves and then bouncing back.

Romans 5:1-11
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

2 Cor 12:8-10
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Your friend in Jesus,
Response #14:  
Great verses!

Well, you're a lot like me, my friend. Really responsive people "get it right" the first time. Some of us have to be banged over the head repeatedly before God's lesson finally sinks in and we "get it" at last. But the really important thing is that we DO get it . . . before it's too let (some people, after all, never do).
“What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’ ‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go. Which of the two did what his father wanted?” “The first,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."
Matthew 21:28-31 NIV
Once we DO get out there in the vineyard, it's important to be happy about it and NOT beat ourselves up over what is past. Paul persecuted the Church. But what does he tell us to do: to forget "what is behind us" on the course (Phil.3:13).

Also, it's very good to be "strong and courageous" like Moses, who stood up to the most powerful man in the world at that time; but at the same time he never stopped being humble, relying on God's power. So Moses was both, and he's not a bad example to follow.
Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.
Numbers 12:3 NIV
Keeping you in my prayers, my friend!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #15:  
Thanks for this Bob,

So would you say that being brave and strong in faith in the world but being meek and humble before God is the right balance? Worldlings seem to do it the other way round, have little respect for God but fear other worldlings.

The flu symptoms have gone now but I have lost a lot of strength and energy in my body as the __ symptoms are a lot harder. That's why I am grateful for any prayers specifically to get through as it is REALLY hard. 

In Jesus,
Response #15:   
Sorry to hear you are still struggling on the health front, my friend. Praying that this will all end soon.

Yes, I think that is a good way to put it: we fear the Lord so we have nothing to fear from the world (link).

Thanks for the prayers, my friend! Busy times here as we are hurtling towards the end of the semester. Our department chair just resigned. It'll be a pain to try and replace him. Also, I had gotten to the point with him of his understanding that one person teaching five years of two languages alone takes a little understanding with the schedule – and some advocacy with the dean.

Hope you can get some rest this week and get back on your feet, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #16:  
You have said that the Lord isn't punishing us for sins long gone. but what about this verse:

Exodus 32:34
Now therefore, go, lead the people to the place of which I have spoken to you. Behold, My Angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit for punishment, I will visit punishment upon them for their sin.”

Unless the idea is that He is saying if they sin in the future when He 'visits' He will punish for THAT since then.
Response #16:  
On your question, when I say "not punishing us for sins long past", I'm talking about 1) believers, and 2) individual treatment. The passage you ask about refers to the hard-hearted exodus generation who tested the Lord "ten time", who always refused to believe in Him or trust Him (with the exceptions of Caleb and Joshua). That generation died out in the desert, collectively. Also, we are talking about Israel there, all of whom were supposed to be believers (but that was never the case, especially with this group).

Hope your week has started off well!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #17:  
Hi Dr L,

So the system the ICHTHYS community uses most is for smartphones and I don't have one, so I won't be doing anything there. Just in case you needed to know.

How are you doing? 

I was reading Frogs by Aristophanes and thought it was interesting.

I also had two things happen. And I used to think Christians were obligated to help any and everyone and pray for any and everyone but I see now that is not so. I was watching a commentator I liked and he said something so, so blasphemous I cannot even hint at what it was. It was not your regular taking His name in vain. And he is British and I sit there and I think, you mock and say such things, but will you complain when you get the alternative to Him? Am I supposed to feel sorry for you when it comes? I hope I am not sinning by feeling this way. I do love the family who is up there though. I do wonder if their recent problems have distracted secular Britain from going after them harder than they were.

And there was a coworker who had a little girl get hurt in a crash. And I did pray a bit. But it did bother me that I do not think she is Christian and I do think she would persecute believers, and I think she is like that commentator who wants His blessings while rejecting Him.

I hope I am not sinning. I am doing well overall. I got a small plant so I will see if it will stay alive lol.
Response #17:   
Aristophanes is one of the harder "reads" in Greek, especially if you're trying it without a commentary. That's because there are plenty of words which only occur in his works and because many of the jokes are obscure to us inasmuch as we don't have the background to understand them. Someone recently made a joke about Carrot-top (a minor celebrity) in some political context. It's not funny or even understandable if you don't know who Carrot-top is (and 2,500 years from now probably nobody will). There are a lot of such individuals (and situations) in Aristophanes.

On praying, I wouldn't see it as a responsibility to pray for anyone whom you do not feel moved to pray for, especially more than once. The only thing obligatory in my book is if I tell someone I'll pray for them, that then I need to stick to that promise (and even here it's not "until the end of time").

*I'm not on the forum and don't really know how it operates. I had thought that they did ZOOM calls together over the weekend. If that's the case, I don't think you'd need a smartphone, only an internet connection (which you have since you email me), along with a camera and microphone (these are easy enough to get and hook up; even I had to do that with Covid). Please fill me in on the details. I think you'd really like the people on the forum.

Wishing you a wonderful weekend! And I am praying for YOU.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #18:  
[go to a Bible conference or not]
Response #18:  
On the conference, I'm confident in your ability to make a good decision. I don't think there is anything wrong with going nor anything wrong with declining. The only thing I would say is that if you go, go with joy and objective of spending some time with your friend, but don't do it out of feeling guilty about not going. A lot probably depends on what the conference is all about and who's leading it. E.g., I would have no qualms about going to a conference of orchid growers; "young people for revolution now!", however, would be one I'd pass on.

Keeping you in my prayers, my friend!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #19:  
[omitted]
Response #19:   
Thanks for the update. Re: "I wonder exactly what they will do or say, even when genuine believers are running it", isn't that the truth! Sadly, one could say that about 99% of the church services out there in Laodicea today as well. It sounds to me as if your prayers were answered, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Yes, I have to finish out this week, then next week light and so is the following one. I have a lot of work to do in closing out the present semester and gearing up for the next one, but the really hard work is about over until January.

Thanks for your prayers – keeping you in mine daily.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #20:  
Hi Bob,

I have some prayer updates for you.

God has been so merciful and answered so many prayers put on your ministry! Thanks so much for your prayerful support over these many years now!

Sadly although prayer has been answered so many times now, so many have not responded to these amazing deliverances of mercy with the right attitude to the Lord. I have not seen the response to the Lord as a result of their deliverance that I have dearly hoped for.

Due to this, I think it better to concentrate prayer for the salvation of unbelievers that I care for rather than specific deliverance from the trials they are going through as it seems that suffering is probably the only way most will turn to the Lord, if at all. Through spending many years over prayer for unbelievers, this seems to me best and what the Lord wants me to do now.

Thanks so much my friend!

In Jesus,
Response #20:   
I do understand. Evaluating and updating one's personal prayer list is necessary from time to time as well. I have no doubt "kept it up" far too long in some cases and moved on too rapidly in others. We do our best to be good stewards for the Lord of all of our time and resources, emotional as well as physical.

Keeping you ALWAYS in my prayers, my friend.

In Jesus,

Bob L.
Question #21:  
Hi Bob,

I was praying for your list every Sunday but prayed for you and Curtis and a few urgent prayers from your ministry daily. The Lord has now moved me to pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ everyday as these are my real family.

As to my own near and dear, I don't want to harden my heart against them and but it is so hard when they attack the One I love more than my own life.

I do suspect strong demonic control over __. I will though now prioritise my family in Christ through prayer and ministry. I am drawing a line under unbelievers and will try my best to have as little to do with them that I can help but pray for their salvation as long as they are not extremely hard hearted. 

I think I have fallen for the enemy's guilt in trying to pray and witness to time wasting unbelievers for long enough now. No doubt that was the enemy's plan all along, to stall me on the ministry altogether (as I was making headway but was distracted with one thing and then another). I feel that I am growing a thicker skin now and know more quickly when to move on and focus my energies elsewhere without guilt.

We have said before that I tend to really need an obvious push from the Lord before I know the right direction. Next time an unbeliever is in distress in front of me, unless I can immediately and directly help them, I will pray for them.

The enemy knows I feel guilty seeing someone struggle but if this year has taught me anything at all, I have learnt that even a struggling person has to want to be helped and then they have to want to be led to the Lord, who after all is the only real help we have here in our brief lives.

In Jesus,
Response #21:   
It sounds to me as if you are moving into a good place of balance, dealing with your family in a reasonable, godly way, and spending most of your time and effort on what is genuinely important. I can't guarantee it, but since we know that the evil one keeps repeating tests, temptations and distractions that work, when they stop working they tend to fall off surprisingly (or actually not so surprisingly). 
It's a very, very rare Christian who doesn't have family, close friends and loved ones who vex his/her heart because of their hardness and unwillingness to respond to the truth. We are hoping and praying that in your case these will all come around, and sooner rather than later. But your words ring very true: "even a struggling person has to want to be helped and then they have to want to be led to the Lord, who after all is the only real help we have here in our brief lives."

Keeping you in my daily prayers, my friend – thanks ever so much for yours as well!

In Jesus,

Bob L.
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