On Salvation outside Israel and before the Cross

Question #1:
I often wonder what the spiritual fate of our ancestors was , a few odd years after Christ was resurrected. How were they saved, what happened to their spirits after death , what part did Christ play in their culture and religion.

Christianity was brought to Sub-Saharan Africa with the arrival of the Portuguese in the 15th century
Read

This means that after the resurrection of Christ which was the most important event after the creation of man, it took over a millenia for the GOOD NEWS to arrive on the shores of the BLACK MAN.

Yet the bible contains these significant scriptures on salvation

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved." - Acts 4:12

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" - 1 Timothy 2:5

Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

So if the death and resurrection of Christ was so VITAL to the salvation of mankind , and any man or woman who died without Chris was hell bound, WHY did it take over a millennia for Christianity to reach black Africa. Ironically when it did eventually reach our shores, it was in the form of colonialism and slave trade which we all know were brutal practices.

Few questions ;
1. Is it not strange that something so important as salvation was delayed for so long
2. Did God not want the black man saved ?
3. Was the black man not god's priority ?
4. Did black people who died worshipping idols in those ancient days go to hell fire ?
5. Did the black men who married more than one wife go to hell after death ?

MAIN QUESTION = HOW DID THE BLACK MAN GET SAVED BEFORE CHRIST AND WAS THIS METHOD OF SALVATION VALID IN THE EYES OF GOD ?

Excerpt from the article ;
"In the interior of the continent most people continued to practice their own religions undisturbed until the 19th century. At that time, Christian missions to Africa increased, driven by an antislavery crusade and the interest of Europeans in colonising Africa. However, where people had already converted to Islam, Christianity had little success "

So even after Christianity started to gradually seep into Africa, Africans still worshipped idols into the 19th century. Also, only parts of black African embraced Christianity, the other half embraced Islam. Why is this ? Did God not love those Africans who accepted Islam ?

Response #1:
Your questions are really one question:

how does anyone get saved?

Whether it was before the First Advent or after, Salvation has always happened by Faith in God's Substitute. That is, those who were saved before the First Advent were those who believed in a Promised Savior. Those who believed after were those who believed in the Savior Who had now come and paid the price for our sins.

What about the Black Man?

Salvation is only by Faith in God's Substitute.

But people will only believe if they hear.

Well, every single human being is born with an awareness of sin, of judgment and of God. Those who take it seriously go looking for answers to the human condition, that is, the condition of being sinful and in danger of eternal condemnation from a Righteous and Just God.

Those who seek ALWAYS find.

This is why we have an Ethiopian in the Bible who was a believer even though he had to go all the way to Jerusalem to worship.

Everyone who goes to Hell is someone who did not want to be saved. They either dismissed the idea that they needed to be or they made up their own idea of salvation.

But throughout all human generations, every single person who has desired to be saved, no matter where they were or what color their skin, was saved.

Question #2:
What do you mean by god's substitute?

Response #2:
That is, the Person that God would provide to take the place of Man in judgment. Before the Cross, it was not known who Jesus would be. But everyone from Adam and Eve who cared knew that God would send a Savior to die in man's place so that human beings can be saved. Believing in that Promise before Jesus came saved anyone who chose to believe. Believing in Jesus after He came saves everyone who chooses to believe.

Question #3:
Most west African cultures did not understand the concept of God's substitute in the primitive era save human sacrifice and other forms of worship. So tell me Sir, how could this have applied to them ? And if you think that it did or even may have , please elucidate further with facts to back your statements.

Response #3:
God doesn't save cultures. He saves individuals. And those individuals who seek a solution to the human condition are always led by the Lord God to the Christ. That has always been the case.

Question #4:
And how can they find , if they had not the means to travel far and wide to learn about this new religion ?

Response #4:
Nothing has ever prevented the Gospel from getting to anyone who looks for it. Naaman was an enemy of Israel and a pagan general but he traveled to Israel. Jonah was sent to Nineveh. Somehow, an African worshiped the God of Israel and went on pilgrimage to the Temple from Ethiopia. Travel has never been the problem. A God Who divides seas can do anything to bring anyone who wants it to the Truth.

Question #5:
Do you know that even in raw Judaism there is no concept of the Christian HELL talk less of African religions. Further, the Jews whose book you read , reject and and still DEBUNK the myth of Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah. How can you, me or anyone know better than the people who OWN scripture ?

Response #5:
I know that in the Bible right from the Old Testament, there has always been an understanding of Eternal Punishment. Daniel, a Jewish prophet described the creation of Hell in Daniel 7:10-11. Granted that the place of the dead, Sheol (or Hades, in Greek) was not all a place of punishment, Hebrew tradition (and the Bible) held that there are three compartments there. There is the Abyss or the Pit where rebellious angels who violate the ground rules of the warfare between them and God are thrown in. It is a place that all rebellious angels are terrified of. There is Torments where the unbelieving dead are deposited when they depart this life. As its name goes, it is not a pleasant place by any account. This is where the rich man in Luke 16 is seen after he dies. Then there is Paradise where all the believing dead before the Cross were taken to rest and luxuriate as they waited for God's Promised Messiah to come and take them into the Presence of God in the Third Heaven. This last place was, well, a Paradise. There, the saints rested from their warfare on earth. Of course that place has been empty since the Lord Jesus rose from the dead and took the saints to the third Heaven with Him.

The Lake of Fire is going to fill Sheol in the end and all rebellious angels and humans will be deposited there for eternity. This is not strange at all to believing Jews.

As for the fact that Jews reject Christ, so what? The Bible itself says that the Jews are currently hardened against Christ. They have always been a stiff-necked people, according to the Bible itself. But, for all that, they were still the most responsive nation to God and His Truth so they remain favored.

Yes, it was Jews who wrote the Scriptures. No, the Bible is not therefore "owned" by the Jews. Certainly not in the sense that they can decide what it means. The Bible means what it means irrespective of what anybody might claim about it. And the only One Who has a right to decide what it means is God Himself.

Question #6:
True, but HOW ?

Response #6:
As I said, by believing in God's Substitute.

Question #7A:
The latter part of your remark has a ring of truth in it.

__________, in addition to the valid points immediately above typed by Ihedinobi3, Jesus Christ will be available to represent people when the time comes to give account and explanations for our every thought, every word and every deed we've done. He is an Advocate, somewhat what you know a defense lawyer to be. Just that in this situation, He is like a duty solicitor, duty lawyer or a public defender, who is available to represent you and on your behalf defend and give explanations for and/or behind your every thought, every word and every deed you ever did.

The access to have Jesus Christ represent you, is the right to free legal aid, you share of with every other human being. It doesnt matter how unpopular, nasty or horrible a person you are, if you believe in Jesus Christ and want Him, anytime, in your life, before or after death, to take your case, He will, He will take your case as an Advocate, Defense Attorney, Defence Counsel, Lawyer, Solicitor or Barrister and win it for you. Instead of you representing and defending yourself, it is Jesus Christ who this way comes to your aid and brings His expertise to the task.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. If you're damned by the each and every thought, every word and every deed you've ever done, then only one Person that I know, is capable as an Advocate, of getting you off the hook is Jesus Christ

Anybody, everybody dead or alive can avail of this free legal aid service paid for by God, and have Jesus Christ mitigate, represent you and cross examine your accusers and/or prosecution witnesess. Funnily enough, some will rather opt for Satan's dark abyss than for a second confess with their mouth and honestly say, "Jesus is Lord" (i.e. honestly say, "Jesus is my Owner'')

Question #7B:
Now, let me address the question of OP.

Apostle Peter happened to be a first hand eye witness in Jesus lifetime.

See what he said...

" For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
(1 Peter 4: 6)

Those who believe in God almighty had gone to paradise.... Where Abraham is.

Those who did wickedness and did not serve God were in bondage... In Sheol..

See what Peter said

" By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"
(1 Peter 3: 19)

So, Jesus according to the first verse I quoted went to those in Sheol to preach to them in their agony.

It took him three days to do that since they were spirits. They should know better ...

But the devil's deception is epic.... Not all of them will believe Jesus

All he needs to tell them is this: "someone who died, is here telling you that he will give you eternal life in God,... How does that sound? "

... Someone I moved men to kill....

And by the time they heard of Jesus resurrection and ascension, it would have been too late.

For those who were alive after Jesus ascension till now,

You have no excuse. You have heard.

If you don't believe in the son before death,

YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN.

Response #7:
Just for the record, I do not agree that after death it is still possible to be saved if one was not saved during their lifetime. I have no scriptural reason to believe that. In fact Hebrews 9:27 stands solidly against such an idea.

[27]And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment...
Hebrews 9:27 NASB

Nor do I believe, __________, that any preaching occurs in the grave. It was to the rebellious angels serving time for various infractions during this war (see, for example, 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6) that the Lord Jesus proclaimed His Victory on the Cross since they did not know what was going on on Earth.

Note that when the Bible says "spirits", it is almost always referring to angels (Heb 1:7). Dead or alive, human beings are spirits that live in bodies so we are referred to as spirits with a qualification to distinguish us from the angels (for example, Hebrews 12:23).

Note also that if the Lord Jesus were preaching the gospel to dead human beings so that they can be saved, that would also violate Hebrews 9:27 and the Scriptures cannot be broken.

Question #8:
" For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
(1 Peter 4: 6)

"gospel preached to them that are dead " is clear enough.. Note the word.. "for this cause " and read previous verses.

There is no proclamation of Victory here... It has nothing to do with angels....

Did you see this?

" that they might be judged according to men in the flesh "

but live according to God in the spirit "

Rebellious angels will not "live to God in the spirit "

Well, let me say this....

Bible scholars and commentaries are divided on this...

Pulpit commentaries and other commentaries agree with the interpretation that I gave it. ..

Some disagree.

I will not want to give a sure stand on an issue like this.

Besides, I always advocate that we cannot fully understand all mysteries of this world while we are in the flesh....

Neither can we answer all the questions...

Our understanding shall be full when we drop this body in death...

That said,

We that are alive should see to it that we obey the teachings of Jesus Christ and live a life of holiness and righteousness unto God.

We have heard the gospel and there is no remedy for us after we die.

Response #8:
The verse did not say, "...the gospel was preached to those who are dead after they had died...". It only said that the gospel was preached to those who were (at the point of writing) now dead.

That verse is a good answer to the question that __________ asked since it clearly states that throughout history, the gospel has always been preached to everyone who wanted to hear it. No dead human being has any excuse because the gospel was preached to everyone who was willing to hear it while they lived. Those who were not had already rejected it out of hand. Therefore, nobody who is now dead can escape Judgment on the basis of the idea that, for example, Jesus did not come before they died, or, for another example, that Jerusalem was too far away from them.

Throughout the Bible it is demonstrated that God had His Truth taken everywhere that people were willing to listen to it and be saved. We see that in the examples of prophets like Jonah who went to Nineveh, Isaiah and Jeremiah who prophesied (even sending letters to foreign kings) to foreign nations. Then, consider that with the Exile, believing Jews and prophets too like Daniel and Ezekiel were dispersed across the world. Daniel, in particular, was why there were "wise men from the East" centuries later who came looking for the Messiah. Each of these believers took the Truth with them wherever they went.

So, the dead had the Gospel preached to them while they lived, NOT after they had died.

PS:___________, I should add that at first when I saw your post I was thinking of 1 Peter 3:19. But even so, it was relevant since it is really the only place that anyone who wanted to mislead believers would lay hold upon to teach that it is possible to be saved after death, not even 1 Peter 4:6.

Question #9:
What's the gospel?

People who were before Jesus never heard the gospel..

I had concluded that issue anyway... Read the commentaries on that verse...non suggested what you are implying.

We don't have answers to all questions, neither do we understand all mysteries.

Response #9:
In fact, the whole point of 1 Peter 4:6 was to declare without mincing words that those who are dead have no excuse since nobody has ever lived who was denied the Gospel.

Before the Cross, the Gospel was that God would send a Savior. If you believed in God's Promised Savior, you were saved. If you didn't, you were condemned.

After the Cross, the Gospel is that God has sent a Savior, Jesus Christ the Son of God. Believing in Him saves you, not believing in Him condemns you.

Faith in God's Substitute was first demonstrated by Adam and Eve when they accepted the coats of animal skin that the Lord gave to them in Genesis 3:21. The skin came from the bloody death of an animal that symbolized the later sacrifice of Jesus Christ. That was the first animal sacrifice and all animal sacrifices that followed, like Abel's not much later, was a proclamation of Faith in the Lamb of God.

As for commentaries, in my experience, they are usually either unreliable or not sufficient in explanation.

Regarding mysteries, it is true that we cannot learn it all in the flesh since we can only see in part in this corrupt flesh (1 Cor 13:9, 12) but we are still responsible to do everything possible to learn all of God's Truth (John 16:13).

Question #10:
Your answer is a theory, just as commentaries cannot be entirely sufficient on mysteries like this one.

I can say that God will decide the judgement criteria for those without access to the blood of Jesus ...those who never knew Yahweh before Jesus came...

This too, is a theory.

After Jesus, everyone who has heard have no excuse as stated by Jesus himself....This one is not a theory...Jesus was clear on this.

Our understanding of mysteries shall be full.....

Response #10:
As I always say, I do not say what I say to be believed. It really makes no difference to me whether you believe me or you don't. What matters to me is that I bear accurate witness to the Truth. So, if you call what I have said a theory merely because you reject it, it won't become a theory for all that. It will remain true regardless. If you believe it, it is YOU who will benefit. My own benefit comes from teaching accurately not from being believed.

Question #11:
You agree that commentaries are not sometimes full and insufficient... These are commentaries from more than seven Bible scholars like Mathew Henry and Co.

But you would not agree that the answer you provided is a theory....I don't have any issue with this....

Response #11:
I did not agree. I asserted.

Scholarship is a very good thing...in the right hands...but it does not make anyone a Bible teacher. You need the spiritual gift of pastor-teacher to have a shot at becoming a Bible teacher. Proper scholarship only supplies useful tools for such a gifted person. Also, proper scholarship should only follow spiritual growth.

So, scholarship without the pastor-teacher spiritual gift and proper tutelage in the Truth by another gifted and qualified pastor-teacher will only result in error and confusion. Where it does not, it will certainly result in insufficient explanations.

That is why there are so few meaningful commentaries out there.

But I am pretty sure of my own answer since the Bible bears it out on every page.

Question #12:
Let me quickly show you why I tag your reply as a theory.

1. The word gospel never occur in the Old Testament. ...

Response #12:
Not a good argument, generally speaking. The word "Trinity" does not occur in the Bible at all. Does that make that doctrine a theory?

Question #13:
2. The knowledge that a saviour would come to the world was made available to the Jew's...

Pagans or idolaters who were not Jews did not expect any saviour...

Response #13:
Nobody was a Jew until Abraham (Genesis 12:2; 14:13). But the very first prophecy of the Coming Messiah was given to Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:15). Abel is in the hall of Faith in Hebrews 11. He too was not a Jew. Nor was Enoch. Nor, in fact, was Balaam:

[17]"I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near; A star shall come forth from Jacob, A scepter shall rise from Israel, And shall crush through the forehead of Moab, And tear down all the sons of Sheth.
[19]"One from Jacob shall have dominion, And will destroy the remnant from the city."
Numbers 24:17,19 NASB

Question #14:
3. Some jews believed that a saviour would come and yet did all manner of wickedness... Manasseh, a king of Judah is an example.

So, knowing that a saviour is coming or believing is not a valid criteria for judgement.

Response #14:
Many hear today that the Son of God, Jesus Christ has died for them and still do all manner of wickedness. Does that render the Gospel an invalid criterion for judgment?

[16]"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
[18]He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:16,18 NASB

Question #15:
God, a righteous judge, will decide what to do everyone who had no access to Jesus sacrifice...

He is not a respecter of persons.

But as for us all, who are reading this comment,

It is either you accept Jesus and be saved or reject him and be condemned .

Response #15:
There has never been a single human being who lacked access to God's Sacrifice.

Question #16:
Peace.

Response #16:
[No response.]

Question #17:
My brother,

The believe of Trinity and the gospel of Jesus are the foundations of Christianity and are valid.... These are everywhere in the Bible.

You shouldn't have related these two principles to your theory...

When I saw that in your reply,

I knew we were done with the discussion.

Response #17:
I do make a difference when I discuss with fellow believers but being a believer does not exempt anyone from actually facing truths that they may not like.

It is unimportant to me what you prefer to call what I said and it certainly is not my business what you decide to believe. These things are up to you. But if you can pick and choose what to believe from the Bible with no consistency whatsoever, that is a serious problem for you. You will accept one doctrine as true in spite of the fact that its theological name is not present in the Bible at all and reject another because a theological name is lacking in a part of the Bible? And you think that this is honest?

I only bothered to make an input in this conversation because ___________ quoted me and I may be misconstrued as sharing his position. Otherwise, you already present yourself as a teacher so you are responsible to be true to the Bible in what you teach. I certainly have no right to tell you what to teach. If you teach falsehood, it will be to yours and to your listeners' hurt. If you teach Truth, it will be to yours and their gain. As much as I love all God's children, I can't tell any teacher what they must teach and any disciple who they must follow.

Having said that, I was content to leave the conversation when you ended it. If you actually want to discuss this, then you will have to learn to reason with me rather than dictate to me. It is not your place to do the latter.

Question #18:
Ihedinobi3, with the utmost respect to you, please, as a matter of urgency, reply to the following:

1/ Are you able to produce where and when I said "after death it is still possible to be saved if one was not saved during their lifetime"?

Response #18:
It was an inference from what you said. The idea that the Lord Jesus would play advocate for anyone who wishes it after death does suggest that if anyone were willing after death to be advocated for by Him, they would be. That does not fit with anything I know in the Bible. Do you have scriptural support for it?

Question #19:
2/ If you are unable to do, which I am sure you wouldnt be able to, will you please admit it as an allegation and retract it?

Response #20:
If it was a wrong inference, then I am very sorry to make it.

Question #21:
3/ 9“As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool;
His throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire.
10A stream of fire issued and came out from before Him;
a thousand thousands served Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand
stood before Him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened
- Daniel 7:9-10
Why couldnt and/or wouldnt you ask for explanation or clarifications on what I wrote about, concerning the access to & offer of free legal aid in?

Response #21:
I'm not sure what to answer here. Your post seemed obvious in its meaning. If I mistook it, then I am sorry to have done but perhaps you could have been clearer.

Here again, it is not clear to me how this Bible passage has anything to do with what you said.

Question #22:
4/ Do you accept and agree, that after death and the appointed time, there will be a court hearing at all?

Response #22:
Not in the manner that it seems to me that you believe that there will be. I fully expect the Lord Jesus to judge the Church at His Second Advent, and the Cohort of Millennial Believers and all unbelievers at the end of History at the Judgment of the Great White Throne. I fully expect that everyone called before Him will be given an opportunity to offer a defense or ask questions and that He will answer every question and every defense. But He will not advocate for anybody at all. Today is when He intercedes for us, that is, believers, not unbelievers. Not at the Judgment Day.

Question #23:
5/ Do you accept and agree, that, in judicial proceedings, that could end up taking away one's life or liberty, the due process of law, is a principle that a person cannot be denied the opportunity to appropriate legal procedures and safeguards nor be deprived of access to competent legal representation?

Response #23:
I have no doubt that some human courts work that way.

Question #24:
6/ Do you think Christophobics or Christ destructionists, really would take avail of God's free legal aid?

Response #24:
I don't know of any such aid from the Bible so I cannot have an opinion of what such people would do either way.

Question #25:
7/ Even though this was when he was still alive, do you see King Agrippa, as a very good case in point of #6 above?

Response #25:
I'm not sure I understand. King Agrippa rejected the Gospel when he heard it from Paul. We don't know if he later went on to accept it or not. But I see nothing here that has to do with any free legal aid at the Judgment.

Question #26:
8/ Do you agree and accept, that God's free legal aid though it will be given the cold-shoulder by Christophobics or Christ destructionists, is as it were, fulfilling all righteousness?

Response #26:
As I said, I don't know of any place where the Bible teaches that God offers any kind of free legal aid at the Judgment.

Question #27:
9/ Do you accept and agree that Jesus Christ is the best Lawyer, (SAN) Senior Advocate Numero Uno anyone can have to represent them?

Response #27:
I know that He is going to judge the whole world, first the Church, then the Millennial Believers and finally all unbelievers. I know of no Bible passage that teaches that He is any kind of lawyer.

Question #28:
10/ Do you agree and accept that Christophobics or Christ destructionists just like every one else is entitled to have access to and be represented by a Good Lawyer?

Response #28:
Please refer to my previous answers.

Question #29:
11/ Do you believe your great great grandfather had the opportunity of the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Gospel preached to?

Response #29:
I am absolutely certain that if he ever desired it, the opportunity would have been given to him.

Question #30:
"And inasmuch as it is apportioned to men to die once, and after this, judgment"
- Hebrews 9:27

Ihedinobi3, dont mind ___________, he was just going about snorting, huffing and puffing, as if like a garage bus conductor tout doing gra-gra and turning the bible on its head with his nauseating prooftexts. Did you notice how he prevaricated replying to my two simple questions exactly the way I asked them? I asked him specifically, about the fate of his great great grandfather, which is like roughly around 160 years ago, as in a 4 generations period but he beat around the bush with an utterly absurd or ridiculous reply that "... if an Ethiopian eunuch got to know about Jesus as early as that, my great great and greatest grandfather heard about Jesus. ....If they refused to believe in him. They go to hell. If you are alive now, you have heard the gospel. If you believe you are saved. If you die in sin, and unbelieve, you go to hell..". SMH. Who asked him about his "... great great and greatest grandfather". Would believe and somebody liked the chucklesome remark.

Response #30:
I do understand that he is not often an easy person to discuss with but I do not share your sentiments about him. We all make mistakes. As a matter of fact, we all make lots of mistakes all the time. And anyone with a zeal for God's Truth should be encouraged in it not scolded with such vehemence for their errors.

Question #31:
I was so pleased Ihedinobi3, seeing and read you mentioning Hebrews 9:27 in your post above, and that's why I have quoted and pasted it above
Now I am going to ask you the same questions I previously asked __________ which he found a way of not answering, they are slightly edited though
1/ What is the fate of your great great grandfather, who never had the opportunity of the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Gospel preached?

Response #31:
I already answered a version of this question above. If he never believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, whether as the Promised Messiah or the Given Messiah, he is in hell.

Question #32:
2/ Since your great great grandfather wasnt preached to, in the grave to by Jesus, do they have or not have the right of access to the best legal aid available, free or not?

Response #32:
As I said, I know of no such legal aid from the Bible. What I do know is that the Gospel was preached to all who had any interest in hearing it. And every human born with a normal intelligence has always possessed a conscience and a clear ability to tell that not only does God exist and is He perfect and just as well, but that we are also very sinful and headed for no good end unless something is done. So, we have the incentive to seek out the Gospel and God's Grace Means to access it. No one has ever lacked either. But not many have sought out the Gospel. No one who ever did was denied it for any reason, however.

Question #33:
I am not surprised you've gone for inference. Conjecturing is a very lazy option the mind revels in embracing. Whenever people dont know the truth of what of I've said, they usually resort to filling in the gaps with conjecture.

You are misrepresenting and have misunderstood Ihedinobi3. I did not say our Lord Jesus would play advocate for anyone who wishes it after death, what I said is our Lord Jesus would be offered as an Advocate for anyone who wishes it after death. It does not mean, people will avail themselves of this, but means fulfilling all righteousness and following, honoring, respecting and adhering to the due process of law.

The below is an excerpt of me after watching Dantedasz YouTube's Christian Justice video:
"Even at crunch down, like in a court room, as depicted in that YouTube video, you can tell a lot about a person's character from how they act when the chips are down. Case in point, because of Mr Smith's and Mr Clark's chronic and hardened nature, they will rather go to the dark abyss, than lose face by accepting Jesus Christ as Saviour and personally acknowledging Him and having Jesus Christ as a Counsel to represent them. Notice in the YouTube video that Mr Smith and Mr Clark represented themselves. Need I go on? Need I say more?
- by __________: 7:51am On Jan 10

C'mon Ihedinobi3, do all things you know, fit everytime with what you know in the bible?
Ah, so you now, want to play your "do you have scriptural support for it" card?

It's no problem, it down to not knowing about Jesus' "The Lesson of the Lamp"

"Pay attention, therefore, to how you listen.
Whoever has will be given more, but whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken away from him"
- Luke 8:18

Ihedinobi3, I can give you a list of other things not stated clearly and in details in the bible but they are a fact and reality. Quite a few things before Jesus explained them with parables and other means of that sort or other similar methods, were actually initially a blur, and werent seen clearly or heard off until His explanations made things clearer and easy to understand.

The introducing and first part of Luke 8:18 above is an acquired skill. It is grace that's increasingly developed over time. The second part though has a strange and frightening eerie tone to it, actually is just cautionary advice, a tip-off or as it were, a word of warning

That passage, with the emboldened and underlines is letting you know, there is a court sitting, and it is one where the full gamut of the rule of law is totally going to be respected and adhered to. This includes, though it will be rejected, still be given the option to free legal aid

What chance do you have offering a defense by yourself? What chance do you have representing yourself Ihedinobi3? Of course Jesus' intercedes for believers daily, but it doesnt mean fulfilling all righteousness and following all the due processes of law will not be honored, respected nor not adhered to Ihedinobi3 on judgement

Tell, what some human courts that dont work that way are called or known as?
If allowing everyone to a fair trial and fair legal representation is the standard on earth, are you making arguments that God has a lesser standard to this and so people would not a right to fair trial and option for free legal representation?

Fair do's but I will repeating the question slightly changed
Do you think Christophobics or Christ destructionists, really would take avail of a hypothetically speaking God's free legal aid?

If King Agrippa's rejection was recorded, dont you think, it is pertinent that it equally is recorded if he later went on to accept it or not.

Whether on earth or in heaven, free legal aid is a fundamental right & human right of the accused, it is not a privilege. Now, the point, all along being made, first with King Agrippa, is that whilst alive, he rejected Jesus, that even wouldnt change after death and because he is aversed to Jesus, he'll never and wont take advantage of the free legal aid and be represented by Jesus

The second, I am not sure whether I typed it in my earlier post, but it has to do with someone this time around that is dead and to show how the free legal aid though available wouldnt be taken up. Look at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, notice that the rich man at death, still never had the common sense to what to made avail of the free legal aid. It is so close to them and yet so far away from them, it is like something in their nature, is denying them to confess Jesus as Lord and Saviour with their mouths and believe in Him with their hearts.

Fair enough

I totally emphatise with you for knowing of no Bible passage that teaches that Jesus is any kind of lawyer

Please just simply respond, as you prevaricated in all your previous answers

Another prevarication.
Let me put it in perpective for you:
Do you believe your great great grandfather had the opportunity of the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Gospel preached to?
This would roughly had been around 160 years ago, basing it on a 4 generations gap span, as 40 years is a generation.

I am not fazed by mistakes ____________ made or not. Truth never decreases by being shared. The light of the truth can be harsh to the eyes of those that are in the dark of a matter. __________ should next time not use the "It is a doctrine of the devils I tell you" line etcetera.

I didnt ask you where your great great grandfather is. What I asked about is your great great grandfather's fate, as in, what is the fate of your great great grandfather, who never had the opportunity of the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Gospel preached? Now, if you say and still insist, he is in hell, then please tell, what criteria and justifications is he in hell for? Make sure you give criteria and justifications that can make him be in another place other than hell

OK in light of the above lenghty sentence, so why did you in the same above reply to "What is the fate of your great great grandfather, who never had the opportunity of the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Gospel preached?" question, say that your great great grandfather, who never had the opportunity of the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Gospel preached is in hell?

Back to the question again but this time, whether you or dont know of no such free legal aid from the Bible, please respond:
Since your great great grandfather wasnt preached to, in the grave to by Jesus, does he have or not have the right of access to the best legal aid available, free or not?

Response #33:
I must beg your pardon. I try to be cordial with atheists, how much more my own brethren. So I am not going to have a blowout with you over this. As I said to ___________, if you present yourself as a teacher, you are responsible for what you teach. Whenever I interfere, it is always for warning or to avoid association with a teaching that I believe to be wrong so that the wrong signal is not sent to anyone who listens to me.

For now, I will say first that it seems to me that you have mistaken my position on Christ completely. Granted that much that I teach is strange and that when I talk to atheists, I typically do not offer Bible references, I hold firmly to the Bible as my authority. I try to teach ONLY what I believe the Bible to say, nothing more nothing less. The fact though is that most believers today know next to nothing about what the Bible actually teaches, so my teachings will always sound extrabiblical to them.

Second, I answered your questions clearly. I do not prevaricate as a rule. Something else I do not allow myself to do is to get caught in a false dilemma. Your questions followed that line. I don't have to say, "yes, my great-grandfather did have an opportunity to believe the Gospel and never took it" OR "no, he never did" when neither is necessarily the Truth. I don't know if he did or did not. But I know from the Bible that no one has ever lived or will ever live who listens to their conscience and receives the witness of Creation and as a result seeks salvation who never received it through the Gospel. So, if my great-grandfather desired to be saved or even only to know how to be saved without eventually committing to Salvation, I am dead certain that he heard the Gospel. If he didn't, then I cannot be sure that he ever heard it.

Finally, I know that the Judgments that will occur in the end will not be looking for defense of the sort that saves but to allow anyone who thinks that they have an excuse to present it and see that God has been completely righteous in all His dealings with them. I also know that God is not Man and it is foolishness to imagine that because men do a thing, so must He. What will happen the day that Jesus judges the Church and the day that He judges the rest of the world will comprehend the ideal that human courts strive for and exceed it by far.

That is what I believe. I do not begrudge you what you choose to believe. I only encourage you to make sure that it is Scriptural. It is not my place to tell you what you must believe or teach. And while I will accept any reasonable rebuke or correction, I am not responsible to anyone but the Lord Himself for what I believe and teach.

Question #34:
I try my best, but as long as a piece of string to be cordial with atheists too. We are having nor going to have a blowout. We are two grown ups, having a healthy dialogue and meaningful conversation, sharing information from coming from differing altitudes. I've known more of __________ now and enough for me to understand and suffer him gladly

How have I mistaken your position on Christ completely? Please clear me on this

"My friends, not many of you should become teachers. As you know, we teachers will be judged with greater strictness than others."
- James 3:1

Well you are the self confessed teacher. I however for very good and obvious James 3:1 above reason, dont parade or profess to be a teacher. I do not teach anybody anything, what I do is put the information out there so as to provoke and make others think. Secondly I don't post information here because I want to convince people who know differently but rather I post to show people who know and are woke, like me that they're not alone

There you go again, all potatoes but no meat and again going off on a tangent. Why cant to stick to the contains of the question? If I needed your info on the bible, I would have asked but I didnt, so why trying to take refuge in it. It is a simple, direct and straightforward question about whether or not you believe your great great grandfather had the opportunity of the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Gospel preached to? This would roughly had been around 160 years ago, basing it on a 4 generations gap span, as 40 years is a generation. There are 3 possible valid answers, which are Yes, No and/or I dont know

I will repeat the question here again, edited to slightly improve on it.
If allowing everyone to a fair trial and fair legal representation is the standard on earth, are you making arguments that God has a lesser standard to this and so people would not have a right to fair trial and option for free legal representation?
Just give a Yes, No and/or I dont know reply

I neither, do not begrudge you what you choose to believe or not believe, I merely am just probing your understanding, so please again, indulge me with these simple direct and straightforward questions:
1/ Is imposed and/or obligatory ecclesiastical monitised tithe giving scriptural?
2/ Is everything you believe in on earth, black and white, red and white in the scripture?
3/ Have you ever personally witnessed a court proceeding from its inception to sentencing?
4/ Do you believe God to be the God of perfect justice and the God of perfect righteousness?
5/ Do you accept and agree there is going to be a prosecutor at judgement?
6/ Do you accept and agree that Jesus is a Lawyer representing pro bono?
7/ Do you believe it is a fair trial allowing anybody to defend and represent themselves instead of an offer or option of having an experienced lawyer approach the bench on their behalf?
8/ Do you accept and agree that the price for sin has been paid for by Jesus Christ?
9/ If your answer to #8 above is Yes, what in the bible, is fundamentally required in order for anyone to qualify to get out of jail free because of what was done in #8 above
10/ Finally, hypothetically speaking, do you think, those who denied, disliked and refused Jesus whilst alive, would if given the chance after death upon being in front of God on judgement, would accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?

Response #34:
All right then. I'm afraid I will not continue this conversation with you. I do not believe that it will be fruitful in any respect.

Question #35:
I said We are NOT having nor going to have a blowout. We are two grown ups, having a healthy dialogue and meaningful conversation, sharing information coming from differing altitudes. Asking questions is the source of all knowledge. Common decency and the least you could do is respond to the 10 questions and afterwards then quit if you are afraid in continuing with the conversation with me. Truth crushed to earth is truth still and like a seed will rise again later bearing fruit. Old ways wont open new doors

Response #35:

[No response]