PASTORAL AUTHORITY, CANONICITY, PAUL’S APOSTLESHIP AND MORE

Question #1:
Very mature poster . Some people dont know that the early christains didnt have the bible in 66 books like we have it now  but they were independent books of their own which were read separately and never collectively. The truth really hurts and for some people it shakes their whole world and beliefs systems hence the rubbish belief that the sons of God were the children of Seth  . That part just makes me LOL wheneva I think of it  . Just negodu nonsense reasoning even after overwhelming scriptural evidences that proves otherwise. The human mind hates truth and is always comfortable in deceits and lies just like a pig is comfy in the mud that even when you wash and bathe it in truth it still returns to the mud and filth of lies . Me I no go enter mud with anybody. If you like make sons of God be children of Okonkwo or Oduduwa na u sabi  or if you say the BOE was written in hell or in ogbomosho, na you sabi. Me I will forever be making reference to the book and will teach my children. Come and beat me 

Response #1:
Hello.

For what it is worth, I don't think that either you or _____can prove your rather big claims about the believers of the first century. I'm quite confident that you are both wrong.

Of course, the 66 books of the Bible were not bound together in one volume at the time, but that was because the technology did not exist. Books were written on scrolls that had a physical limit to their size. You could only "bind" so many scrolls together into a "book." For that reason, the early believers actually kept copies of all the books of Scripture in their meeting places for public reading when they assembled. Then, if anyone could afford it and had the ability or could afford the services of a reader, they made copies of any given book that they wanted to own and read or have read to them privately.

As I have argued several times on this thread (and elsewhere), every writing of Scripture was clear to believers to be Scripture right from the moment that it was written throughout history, including during the time of Moses. No believer with any spiritual common sense and a heart open to Truth has ever been confused about what is Scripture and what is not. It is immediately obvious. The Bible itself says as much. Paul and Peter were still alive obviously when Peter affirmed that Paul's writings were Scripture. Paul himself commanded the churches that he wrote to to share his letters to them with other churches and to make copies of his letters to other churches for their own selves. He did that because he was full aware that he was writing Scripture to them. In the Old Testament, Moses consciously wrote everything he did on God's direct orders. Jeremiah did too. Even when King Zedekiah burnt the first uncompleted book of Jeremiah, his officials knew that it was Scripture and tried to persuade him not to.

As for the 66 books being available to the Church of the Apostolic Age, the New Testament was completed by the middle of the first century. Not only was it completed, it was also very quickly distributed as it was being written. So, believers throughout the world had access to the full Bible when the Apostles finished writing the New Testament. Nobody lacked for the Truth at any time.

Of course, many other books were traditionally preserved in perhaps many assemblies, books that were clearly known not to be Scripture, but which believers loved to have read to them and which some of them thought had some spiritual value. Among these perhaps would be the histories like the books of the Maccabees. Eventually, things like this became a snare when apostates who thought too highly of themselves assumed licence to teach falsehoods that violated what the Apostles taught.

This is what led to the agitation for a Canon. The whole business of defining a Canon was not because anyone was in doubt of what was Scripture and what was not, it was entirely because false teachers in the church visible began to create confusions in the church visible especially regarding the Deity and Humanity of Jesus Christ.

Even so, the binding of all the books of the Bible into a single physical volume did not occur until new book-making technology that allowed the creation of large volumes came about. As I said, this did not stop Christian churches from collectively owning a full collection of all 66 books. If you could afford it then, you could even privately own a copy of this collection. Judging by the vast array of manuscripts from so long ago too, it seems clear that many copies of the collection existed in varying degrees of completeness too, certainly because of private ownership of copies made according to affordability.

As for the Book of Enoch, as I've said, I don't presume to decide for anyone what to believe and what not to believe. But the Book of Enoch is a late production. It was a copy-cat project designed to draw legitimacy from what Jude wrote. There is absolutely no inspiration in the work. Jude himself made reference to no book at all. He only quoted Enoch himself, something that can be explained by his status as a prophet (that is, one who declares God's oracles). A prophet obtains information through various divine means including visions and dreams. Jude was writing of something that had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit, not of anything he had read from any book.

Nonetheless, you need not receive this as any kind of rejection or challenge to your right to believe anything you want. I completely and wholeheartedly believe in your right to exercise your free will. The rewards and consequences of your choices are between you and the Lord. My part is merely to teach the Truth to anyone who might listen.

Question #2:
I think you need to spend some money on a a good History of the Bible. Here's a free one for those who might read it to him.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/biob/biob04.htm

Response #2:
I've spent a lot in money and time and energy on the Bible and histories surrounding it. Not everything I've spent on has proved to be worth anything spent on it, except in teaching me what not to spend on.

Might I advise you then to exchange some of your own arrogance for a proper, reliable education in the matter? If you are willing to, you could begin at https://ichthys.com.

As for your link, it is not impossible that a professor of English and philosophy could offer reliable information on histories, but I find it impossible to trust something that completely ignores the testimony of the Bible itself. In making the claim that believers of the first century lived in expectation of what he seems to take as an imminent return of the Lord, he does not explain why, at least, Paul's letters seemed to communicate that no such imminence was taught by the Apostles, so that those who actually listened never expected the Lord to return in their lifetime. This is not to mention the vast evidence in the Gospels, Acts and other letters that believers of the Apostolic Age read and had explained to them that the Kingdom was yet to be established, and there would be an intervention of 2000 years before it would be.

In his further claim that the believers of that age had no Creed and no canon, he ignores the substantial references to traditions that were instituted by the Apostles, including the Lord's Supper, dress codes, and general assembly etiquette. He also ignores the clear statements in the Bible that Scripture was well-known to believers at the time.

In his claim that the churches possessed fragmentary writings of the New Testament, he ignores clear instructions that churches had to share the letters of the apostles with one another and make copies for themselves, and the travels of the Apostles and the access that people like Peter and his own churches had to the writings of others like Paul.

In other words, this link is a very careless recount of history. I would be very ill-advised to believe what it says. If I would bother with it, I would be looking for anything in it that is corroborated by more reliable authorities elsewhere and hope that any additional information that it has is a logical possibility.

As it is, it seems pretty worthless to me. So, I fear that you may have wasted your time and money looking at it and recommending it to me. I certainly wouldn't bother with it myself.

Question #3:
You will be ill-advised to believe, I'd say, as it's meant for consideration only. I did after all ask you to invest in a book.

I've checked https://ichthys.com/ numerous times. I find it to be a believers website, as in a website for those who dig no further than surfaces. Seems the section pertaining to History of the Bible is however a work in progress.

"In the Basics series, currently in the process of production, part 7, "Bibliology", will be devoted to this and related issues."

Do let me know when its written.

Response #3:
I'm not sure what consideration is for, if it is not to decide whether to believe something or not. But then, your way of thinking tells me to not expect much in the way of sanity in what you say, so I'll just move on.

As for the website, you are exactly right. It is a believers' website designed for those who love the Truth, just as the Bible is the Truth designed for those who are willing to believe it, that is, it is a believers' Book, which does raise the question why you won't leave it alone. Of course I know why. Your concern with the Bible is not because you believe that it is the Truth or that it has anything of value to give you. It is only an opportunity for you to make life as hard as you can for believers in Jesus Christ, and that does have a payout in the end.

As for Bibliology, there is a list of links in the same page that can show you discussions that will provide you with the same information that the study will have when it is written. You can start with those, if it matters to you. The publication of that particular study could be up to a couple of years out.

Question #4:
One may consider to understand, Ihe, even if not believed. Take you, for instance. Your belief that ____ is insane just shows you lack understanding of ____. But I bet you'd claim an understanding of ____ is unnecessary, though you would not see that as arrogance.

The Bible is a book, and no one has an inalienable right to it. As to whether I "make life as hard as you can for believers in Jesus Christ" as you falsely claim, "by thy fruits shall ye be judged, Ihe".

Response #4:
What results then from understanding? A decision to believe or not. It is really that simple. You cannot quite escape the choice to believe or not. Understanding what you have to make a choice about does not eliminate the choice itself.

I do understand you very well. I have since we had a conversation on the Christian Chatbox thread. That is another thing you'll need to decide whether you believe or not.

Please don't think that I even think I can in any way stop anyone from reading the Bible. I don't even want to. If I had the power, I would sooner make everyone read it, but not even God violates anyone's free will, how much less myself, a bit of dust wandering the Earth in hope. Please read the Bible all you can, ____. I do hope that it will do you good eventually, but for now, you are harming yourself with it quite badly.

There is no falsehood in the claim. I don't expect you to agree, but your own words all over this platform are enough of a testimony to what I have said. I didn't make any of it up. Your effort is directed against the very business of believing the Truth. According to you, we ought not to believe. We ought to know for sure. Considering how we are deliberately kept in the dark about so much by the Lord, I am not sure how you are not then making life as hard as you can for those who choose to believe. Perhaps my error is that you have not yet exhausted your full ability in doing so? Nonetheless, you yourself claim to not believe, and you interfere wherever you find believers in order to show the folly of faith. That is your mode of operation, is it not? I don't believe I have misrepresented you at all.

Question #5:
Understanding is not for believing or not. Not knowing is also an option. The believer however, has to make a show of knowledge they do not and can not have. That, Ihe, is arrogance and leading astray; the humble say when they don't know.

The heart of the discerning acquire knowledge, the ears of the wise seek it out. Proverbs 18:15.
Gold there is, and rubies in abundance, but lips that speak knowledge are a rare jewel. Proverbs 20:15
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him— the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD—Isaiah 11:2
For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding. Proverbs 2:6

Wisdom is what comes from understanding, Ihe. Both are gifts from God. While 'believe' is a thing you chose to do of your own free will, mostly, in the very little you assume to know. No wonder it makes you see demons everywhere and why it makes you tremble.

I'd suggest you leave the kindergarten classes and choose the greater gifts of God Wisdom and Understanding. Look around at the fruits produced by God through humans and claim it was not built on these and not on mere belief.

Response #5:
There is that insanity that I mentioned.

You are exactly right that ignorance is a choice. Sometimes, it is a passive one, that is a choice to not seek at all. That too has a reward from the Lord.

As for your comments on believing, that is proof of the insanity too. Belief is not a pretence to knowledge, by definition. It is merely a state of confidence that something is true or that someone is trustworthy. For example, I may not know how many rooms there are in the White House, but when a brochure or a news company tells me that there are, say, 300, I may believe, that is, take it to be true that there are 300 if I consider the brochure or news company to be trustworthy. The only question would be how the brochure or news company has proved itself to be reliable. If they are then, for all intents and purposes, I know that there are 300 rooms in the White House, even if I have never been in the White House. It is not a pretence any more than it is one to believe that math works how your teacher tells you it does in school.

Because we have seen the world around us, we know that a God exists and we know what He is like. The Gospel only proves what we expect of such a God. The Bible is consistent too with the Gospel and the Witness of Creation. That is why we believe it about things that we cannot see. This is just normal human reasoning. It is how logic works. It is not a false pretence to knowledge when we accept the testimony of someone we consider reliable and act as if that testimony is certain knowledge. It is just a reasonable thing to do.

So, those who believe the Bible can act with confidence that what they believe is entirely true. It is not false pretence. What they actually believe is true. So, they do know the Truth, since they know that the Witness is reliable. They may not have seen the things that they are told for themselves, but they don't need to. They have seen proof of reliability in the Witness and that is enough for them.

I understand that that is not enough for you, ____. That is alright. It is the difference between you and us. We believe that God does not lie and that the Bible is His Reliable Testimony, so we know that what we learn from the Bible is wholly true. You don't. You can wait until you see the King Himself in order to believe. That too is fine with me. But, of course, until then, you will just do your best to make the walk of Faith a test for all of us who believe in Jesus Christ and encounter you.

Wisdom is a value description for something that we do. If we believe what we have come to learn is true, then we are wise. If we do not, then we are foolish. That's it. Understanding comes from applying careful thought to the things that we are told by reliable witnesses. When we understand, we make a choice what to do with what we have learned. That choice can be a wise one or a foolish one, as I have described above. So "wisdom" and "understanding" are not the magic words you wish to make them out to be.

As for seeing demons everywhere, I'm not sure what you mean. Perhaps that is a bit more of the insanity. The "tremble" part certainly is, since I don't believe I have communicated any such thing anywhere on this platform.

As for leaving the kindergarten classes, it is certainly interesting that you are saying that after previously trying to flatter me for being a "knower" rather than a believer. I'm sure you change as it suits you to try to make the truth a lie and the lie a truth. By all means, stick with your own version of wisdom and understanding, I want no part of it. It is obviously insanity from where I stand.

In the end though, you prove my point: you attack Faith wherever you find it. That was not the false accusation you claimed it was. Your own comments betray you.

Question #6:
Oh, you do not some, Ihe. No doubt from your extensive study, but it is a shame to call insanity that which you do not understand.

I do not have to believe the White House has 300 rooms if I can go inside the White House and count the rooms, after which I should know the number of rooms in the White House since I would bother to seek to know. Bit if I couldn't be bothered to go count, it would be rather odd of me to emphatically claim there are 300 rooms in the White House, unless I have no confidence in my counting abilities of course. Same with God. If I am not quite sure of God I might be inclined to believe what I'm told about God, but once I go and count the rooms, so to speak, why would I merely believe what I know? Wouldn't it be odd to merely believe one has "seen God in the world around you"?

"Seek, and you shall find", is it written, and not "Believe you have found". And yes, Ihe, I have found, so I know that Jesus is indeed Lord.

Response #6:
You really shouldn't bother to flatter me, ____. I am perfectly comfortable with my Faith. It does not trouble me at all that you do not share it and that you consider it beneath a reasoning human being. That is your problem, not mine.

As I said, I understand you and all the lies you prefer to attack our faith with. I don't call them insane merely because I don't understand them. I call them insane because they are insane.

As for counting the rooms, as I said, you can wait until the King returns in order to believe or "know," as you prefer. Or travel to the Third Heaven at your leisure, if you please. I have no problems with how you want to deal with the Truth. That is your concern, not mine. I choose to believe myself, and that is perfectly all right for me.

Well done on your knowledge so far. I fear it is not at all the same as mine, so it means nothing to me that you throw in a name whose Owner you reject.

Question #7:
You mean, "whose owner you believe I reject", surely.

All I can say is the Lord sees the heart.

Response #7:
Oh, no, I don't mean that at all. Your words and actions betray you.

Yes indeed, the Lord sees the heart. And we too are given to see the actions of men.

Question #8:
Do you have a keen understanding of the "66" books already present in the Bible?
Just the first five books of the Bible, known as the books of Moses, would keep me engrossed for days.
Enoch was mentioned in the highest manner..in Genesis, so I think that was sufficent enough.
I think what's in the Bible is what God wanted in there and for us to focus on...not what's "not" there.

Response #8:
Hi.

Forgive me, but could you please clarify your comment? Are you saying that because "Enoch was mentioned in the highest manner," the Book of Enoch is therefore endorsed by the Bible? Or are you saying that we don't need a Book of Enoch since the Bible has given us all that the Lord wants us to know about Enoch, namely, that he was a most exemplary believer and a prophet who foresaw the Second Advent before the Flood?

I am asking so that others will not stumble over your input. I'm not even completely sure that I understand it myself.

Question #9:
Hi sir,
I was saying the we do not need a "Book of Enoch", included in the Bible because the manner in which he was mentioned as an "exemplary believer...." in Genesis 5 is sufficient.

What God ultimately wanted us to know about Enoch was written there in Genesis...and short but extremely powerful.
There's a reason that a snippet of Enoch, rather than a "whole book" of him, has been included in the "66" books that compose the Holy Bible.
If God wanted "his book" in the Holy Bible, then it would have been there.

I see no problem, though, with reading additional info --from reputable sources--on the life if Enoch (in fact I have read some awesome info on him).

My apologies that I wasn't quite clear enough.

Response #9:
About Enoch, I agree completely with you and thank you kindly for clarifying.

As for reading additional info, the trouble, I suppose, is how to know that the information that you are reading is actually true if it is not in the Bible. Those who are arguing so vociferously for the Book of Enoch here and elsewhere claim that the age of the book and the fact that it was read by early believers prove that it is reliable. Neither of these claims is either sufficient or necessarily true. But my point for raising them with you is that Enoch is a part of the story that God tells us in the Bible. Where then could anybody get any more information about him outside the Bible?

Enoch was of the seventh generation from Adam, which means that anything that he may have written or which may have been written contemporaneously about him is unlikely to have survived this long. That is without even accounting for the worldwide Flood of Noah's Day. Assuming that human beings had begun to write during Enoch's time so that any information about him was written then, Noah would have had to preserve it from the Flood. Then generations after him would have had to preserve that writing in the changed physical conditions of the world since that time. None of these things is very probable or particularly possible without the Lord's Own Involvement.

In fact, the Lord was not concerned with preserving anything for us that way. His Plan was to give us the Truth through the nation Israel, so the first time that the Truth was written down for preservation for believers was when Moses wrote the Pentateuch at God's Command. Moses, just like Jude later on, was given revelations of the past to write about: that was how he knew about Enoch. He didn't learn about Enoch merely from any previously written sources. How do we know that? Because the Bible makes quite clear to us that Moses wrote what God told him or showed him (Exodus 24:4; 34:1; Deuteronomy 31:9, 22). The nation Israel began only through Abraham who was the first Hebrew (the sign of circumcision that marked out the Hebrew was given when Abraham was 99). Enoch was not a Hebrew or a Jew, as someone here has claimed, nor was Noah, nor, in fact, any patriarch before Abraham. Abraham was the first.

So, how could we possibly have any additional information about Enoch outside the Bible? Honestly, I can't see how. Clearly, the Book of Enoch was not written by Enoch - those who are making so much noise about it here admit that it wasn't written before 300 BC (it was actually written much later, not earlier than perhaps the second century AD), and Enoch lived around 3400 BC. The book does present itself as written by Enoch too, so how could it have been written so much later than Enoch lived? But they don't care that they are lying. As for any other source of information about Enoch, it must of necessity be prophetic, since, as I have said, no writing could have survived so long from Enoch to us without God's Own Involvement, and if God was involved in preserving it, it would be part of the Bible, but it isn't, because it isn't God-breathed at all, which also means that it isn't prophetic at all (2 Peter 1:20-21).

Please understand me. I am not insisting that you agree with me. I am just explaining what I believe to be true. You are free to reject what I say.

What I can say for Enoch is that the Lord made a point of noting him to encourage believers who will live to see the Second Advent. He was a demonstration of the living Resurrection (not that he was resurrected, no, he was only translated, but he was a demonstration to us of the Lord's Power to exclude physical death for believers). This is important because believers of Enoch's Day knew that physical death was part of our punishment from the Lord, but they very likely had no idea what would happen to those who lived and believed until the Return of the Lord to retake the Earth from Satan. It is significant to note that both his translation and the only prophecy attributed to him by the Bible point to the Second Advent. That was what the Lord wanted us to see about him. It is not wise then to go beyond what is written in the Bible because then we would lose the precious truth that the Lord is graciously giving to us through Enoch's example.

Edited.

Question #10:
Which of the Bibles are you referring to?

The one that pegged God’s words at 66 books?

Response #10:
**No response**

Question #11:
All you guys that speak with so much authority like God consults you before He does His will.

Enoch was not a Hebrew? If you were well read you would have known that the first language was hebrew before babel. Or do you think it was English or Igbo? The book of Jasher which was also mentioned in the bible enlightens us on this. All you guys dat wont read but just act as Gods mouth piece like you and God existed together since inception. Lol.

Whatever makes anyone sleep at night. Truth cannot be hidden. Who were d Angel's Peter spoke of? Which sin and who reserved them in hell?

These bible you guys are talking about lol do you know the men that canonized it? Lol. Iz like saying herod's renovation of the 2nd temple were from God. Lol. D man did it for personal reasons and God was not part of it. It's amazing how people think that some books put together by man is all God has said since inception of Man. Same man that now tells us what the church is about?

If you follow the system of man on how to relate with God we will quickly find out that the devil has infiltrated the church and is changing times and seasons. Even the church as we have it now is not what the NT apostles preached. The Catholics diluted it and every other denomination is simply an offshoot of the traditions of man.

At last God knows them that are serving Him. No one has monopoly of knowledge. Read and read more to understand by books. Even Yeshua had to read to understand His assignment. Yeshua had to apply himself to understanding scriptures as He always quoted from it.

Please I'm not trying to convince anyone to read it. In fact pls dont. But the truth should not be distorted. If you cannot say anything that BOE said to contradict d bible then pls let's hold our peace and stop judging after appearances. Our minds are limited to human understanding. We are not God and cannot think like Him. The bible with 66 books remains the authority and foundations/marking scheme for other books like BOE and as today, the book passes with flying colors when mirrored with the bible. Lol.

Response #11:
I'm afraid I don't see how you have been speaking with any less authority with your very large claims and no proof.

As for your claims about Enoch's nationality, neither your argument about language nor your appeal to the book of Jasher is any kind of reasonable proof. For the first, the Bible is clear that God created nations only in response to the Tower of Babel debacle in Genesis 11. The people that existed before that time were never called a nation or Hebrews. We are not even told what the language they all spoke was. Of course, it is my thinking too that it was very likely Hebrew because of Isaiah 19:18 and Zephaniah 3:9, but that is not at all proof that anybody who existed before Abraham was any kind of Hebrew. The nation Israel did not exist then because nations did not exist then (see also Genesis 12:2).

For the second, I might as well quote Alexander Fleming or Ghandi or Buddha to prove that something that the Bible does not say at all is true. Why should it matter to me what your book of Jasher says? Did God inspire it? If it says that the Hebrew nation existed before God created nations, then it most definitely contradicts Genesis, since Moses wrote that the nations only came into existence after Nimrod's rebellion with the Tower of Babel (Genesis 10:32; cf. Genesis 11:1-9), which occurred a century after the Flood, for that matter.

As for the angels that Peter spoke of, they were those that took human women in Genesis 6 to produce the Nephilim with. That was their sin. They, like the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, "went after strange flesh." It was the Lord God Himself Who had them chained up in the Abyss for that wickedness. Moses, Peter, and Jude witness to this. I don't need an extrabiblical source to help me believe or understand it.

As for the canonization of the books of the Bible, I did make this comment that it suited you to ignore, so I don't see the sense in answering you again here. I think that, just like your comrade ____, you care nothing for whether you lie or tell the truth as long as you can seduce and bully others into your rebellion against the Lord. If this were not true, I'm sure you would give more attention to the claims that you make and make sure that they are actually true.

I'm not sure what your comments about churches are about. I don't believe that I have said anything in that regard here.

As for reading, by all means do. It is always best to read the Bible, that is, actual Scripture, not merely pretend Scripture, though. So, although I have read a lot of things and still do, the Bible decides for me what is true and what is false. I don't pretend to the ability to tell what is true and what is false without the help of the Bible. So, I lean very heavily on the Bible to say anything that I say. I certainly don't demand that you believe the Bible. Believe it, if you want. Don't, if you prefer. It's your gain and your loss, not mine.

As for all your accusations of arrogance, saying that no one has the monopoly of knowledge is just a sneaky way of trying to hide all your own claims to that monopoly. Are you not the one who has been mocking "us" (whoever you meant by "you guys" ) for not reading like you? Your great knowledge from books is apparently supposed to be emulated by "us," not least because it is just as "Yeshua" was. I am almost never surprised or deceived by your likes with your accusations of arrogance while you yourself are being unspeakably arrogant and your claims to knowledge when you are abominably ignorant.

Question #12:
Interesting to note you didn’t point out where God, Jesus or the Apostles pegged God’s words to a set of books.

Your standard is “feeling life” in those books.

Feelings.

An eternal God who has been in existence and speaking to men before ink and paper was invented suddenly has all His words limited to a set of books.

Greatest joke ever.

I wonder what you will call prophecies/revelations from God given to those with the gift of prophecy in our time that came to pass. Since these are not canonised, they’re not the words of God too abi?

Ihedinobi3 is Mark 16 v 17-20 also part of the inspired words of God?

Mark 16 v 17-20;
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen

Response #12:
Per the first part of your post, I already answered this and all your other similar tantrums here: https://www.nairaland.com/5450889/why-book-enoch-removed-bible/12#83379471.

As for the second part of your post, I already answered them here: https://www.nairaland.com/5368368/jesus-saw-same-drawn-eight/5#81469073, and in similar comments on the same thread. Also, there are these two examples in the Bible among a vast number of other proofs that Satanic miracles can be just as convincing as divine ones sometimes:

[8]Now the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying,
[9]"When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, 'Work a miracle,' then you shall say to Aaron, 'Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a serpent.'"
[10]So Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and thus they did just as the Lord had commanded; and Aaron threw his staff down before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent.
[11]Then Pharaoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers, and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts.
[12]For each one threw down his staff and they turned into serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs.
Exodus 7:8-12 NASB

[16]It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling.
Acts 16:16 NASB

As for your other post, on the thread I quoted from above, you will also find a conversation you and I had about that. I know you don't care either, but you should know that I won't let you waste my time and energy again on this board.

Question #13:
Simple question, you’re still beating around the bush.

Revelations/prophecies from God given to those with a gift of prophecy in our time. Are these also the words of God? Yes or no.

Is Mark 16 v 17-20 also part of the words of God?

Put your answers here.

https://www.nairaland.com/5368368/jesus-saw-same-drawn-eight/3#81457083

Is this what your fingers are finding quite heavy to type here?

You clearly don't believe Mark 16 v 8-20 is also the word of God, despite it being part of the 66 books you brandish in our faces as the complete word of God.

Neither do you believe certain gifts of the Spirit such as prophecy, tongues e.t.c. are no longer active in the church and in the life of believers today.

Response #13:
**No response**

Question #14:
Do you know the book of Jasher was quoted atleast twice in the old testament? . And anyone who reads that book will see how it fills in gaps in the bible? The bible is after all a historical account brother.

That you r scared of other books that are not in your conventional bible shouldn't make you run down the books. Atleast allow other read and discern. The only way to know if a book is inspired or not is to atleast read it . That's y we have d Holy Spirit. He will teach you all things.

Atleast you r not ____ dat is hopelessly blinded . You beleive in the fallen angels story and it makes me know you beleive in the bible. That's all that matters. Leave others who wanna go d extra to gain understanding by way of BOE or Jasher because that bible you holding is not ALL of the words of Yeshua .

The important thing is to love God and His son Yeshua and it matters not if you read Jasher or Enoch. The 66 books are more than Enuff mate. I respect people who respect d bible as you clearly do by acknowledging what Peter and Jude said. ____ is lost .

Please ill try n make this my last post here because the bible is enough and promoting a book is not the gospel however, it's also wrong to knock down a book esp if there r no evidences to prove its apostasy. All the issues raised here on Enochs apostasy have been answered. Truly, if Enoch is an inspired word, it must mirror the known word which it does.

No blasphemy, and every issue raised can be examples from the bible 

Response #14
A book of Jashar was referenced, not quoted, in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18, but I see no reason to believe that it is the same as the book you are so crazy for. Why should I believe that they are the same? The book mentioned in the Bible was not quoted by the Bible at all, nor was it endorsed by the Bible as inspired at all. So, even if that book exists today and is accessible, we have no reason to believe that it is inspired. As for filling gaps in the Bible, I'm sure you are free to believe in such fictions, if you please.

As for being scared of other books, I'm not sure how I have communicated such a thing, although it is certainly wise to be wary of anything that is not afraid of pretending to be words of God. It is a terrible thing to put words in God's Mouth. Those who do it have a very bad end waiting for them. So, I would be very happy to not be in their midst. None of that means that I haven't read books like the Book of Enoch. In fact, I sampled it a bit just for the conversations here. Growing up, we had a Catholic Bible at home that had the Apocrypha in it. I did try to read them, and I got deep enough into them to wonder why they were even in the Bible, and I was a kid then. I don't remember anyone telling me that anything was wrong with having those extra books then, but it was clear to me that they were different from the other books. So, try to stick with what you actually know to be true so that you don't make bogus claims.

As for letting anyone do this or that, I am sure that I have said it multiple times that anyone who wants to can read anything they want. I don't even care if you want to write stuff and call it Scripture too. That's your own business. But if you try to persuade the children of God that have been given to me to protect that it is Scripture, then I will oppose you. Even so, I fully recognize that I can't stop even those in my charge from reading things that will only harm their faith in the Lord. So, there is no "letting" or "preventing" happening here except in your own head. I'm not stopping you or anyone from reading whatever you want to read. I can't even stop you from pretending that it is Scripture. But you cannot persuade me or anyone who is willing to listen to me to join you in that madness.

You are right that the taste of the pudding is in the eating. You can tell if something is inspired by reading it, but if we must read everything before we can be sure what is inspired and what is not, then we will never be sure what "all the Truth" that the Holy Spirit is supposed to lead us into is (John 16:13). Thankfully, we don't have to read everything to know what is inspired. As I told you in another post, Scripture was known as it was being written. From that time on, it was collected together and distributed authoritatively. We have today the literature that believers received from Old Testament prophets and New Testament Apostles and preserved for us to learn from too. We know not only that it is all Scripture, but also that it is complete. Anything outside of those 66 books and letters may be illuminating for understanding them, for example, the writings of pastor-teachers, but nothing else is Scripture at all. If you want to pretend that it is just because there are so many books in the world, some of them fraudulently bearing names and titles stolen from the Bible, that is really your own kettle of fish. It's not the believer's problem at all.

You are like many others on here that I have met and discussed with. You know very little of Truth, but you take that little and foul it up with a vast amount of lies that essentially lead you into perdition and then proceed to make yourself a stumbling block to those who believe. I am not on your side, because you really do not believe the Bible at all. You make stuff up and you listen to made-up stuff that you proceed to try to mix into what the Bible actually says, and it is a very heady mix that drops you straight into Apostasy. So, yes, I do believe the Bible, but you clearly don't. That is why you want to put words in God's Mouth.

If you really believe, as you say, that the Bible is more than enough, you should quit adding stuff to it. As I have said, if fiction is your thing, by all means, enjoy it, but don't call it Scripture just because you like it. If you love God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, not only will you respect Them enough to not put words in Their Mouth, but you will also care for the welfare of Their Church and not put believers bought with precious Blood at spiritual risk with lies.

As I said, I don't see any reason why anyone would claim that the Book of Enoch is inspired at all. It is obviously a work of fiction that pretends to have something to do with Jude.

Not sure what your last paragraph means.

Question #15:
The BoE was a work of fiction found in the ancient Dead Sea scrolls alongside other scriptures at Qumran.

Wehdone

Response #15:
**No response**

Question #16:
So you mean the early believers had copies of the scriptures from Genesis to revelation in all assemblies?

Are you trying to say there was nothing like the epistle of Barnabas in the early church?

Since you said Jude quoted Enoch by inspiration of the Spirit, Did Jude also quote Peter by inspiration of the Spirit?,
Was it also the Holy Ghost that inspired you to say the BOE was a copycat project?

Stop confusing yourself with the opinion of men. As many as are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

I don't listen to so called teachings of truth from people like you, cos you're confused. When you've learnt enough yourself, then you can come and teach me.

Response #16:
So, you agree that you cannot prove the claims you were making? You were only just making stuff up because you don't believe that any opposing views can be proved? If I am wrong, go on and prove what you claimed.

As for teaching you, I have not presumed to do so. If you are one of those that the Lord has led to me to be fed and tended, you would listen to me, but obviously you don't.

Question #17:
Sir,
I completely understand what you are saying about the danger of reading sources outside of the Bible.
It really is extremely dangerous.
The Bible interprets itself.
One has to be extremely prayerful and discerning when choosing even some Bible commentaries, cause nor all authors are led by Christ' spirit to write.
I had only read one outside source which basically just expounded on Enoch's righteous life.
I've never read this "Book of Enoch" and don't ever intend to..
I think this only causes more confusion and deception.

Response #17:
You're exactly right.

There are many false teachers out there. It isn't always easy to find reliable pastor-teachers. I started searching for reliable teaching from childhood, and I read everything, went to many churches, listened to and watched a large number of "pastors," "evangelists," "bishops," "apostles," and whatnot in my search. Whether they were just charismatic or academics or mystics, I listened to them all. In my frustration, I gave up looking for teachers and decided to teach myself.

The Lord was merciful to me and wouldn't let me settle into self-deceit, so although I spent a long time pretending to be a mature believer and even teaching the things that I was not so sure were true (you can check my old Nairaland account https://www.nairaland.com/ihedinobi2 for proof), I did not lie to myself about things that I simply didn't understand in the Bible, nor did I lie to myself that we are not responsible to learn everything the Bible has to teach us.

Eventually, I got off of Nairaland and tried to figure the whole business of life out. That culminated in a desperate cry to the Lord in 2016. In that prayer, I confessed my ignorance and confusion and my need to learn the Truth. It was a desperate cry. I was terrified that I had destroyed my life with my arrogance up to that point. The Lord was very kind to me. About a year from then, on October 3, 2017, a Google search about whether Christians should be competitive in business led me to https://ichthys.com that was so deep in the results that I think I found it close to the fourth or tenth page, I can't remember which. I read a snippet from this link and got hooked. I had no idea that the webpage was actually book-length, but I read it through and went "into" the website to find more. I ended up spending the next nine months or so reading all the major works on the site, and I have remained with the ministry until now. For the first time in the more than three decades of my life, I am finally seeing the Bible clearly and appreciating the way life works according to God's Plan. For the first time too, I can exercise my pastor-teaching gift without fear that I am misleading anyone who listens to me.

This is all what Paul taught us in the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 4:

[11]And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
[12]for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
[13]until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
[14]As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
[15]but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
[16]from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
Ephesians 4:11-16 NASB

That is, the Lord gave some gifts for the specific job of growing the Church to maturity. The Apostle, the prophet, the pastor-teacher, and the evangelist are given by the Lord to build up the Church by bringing in new believers through the dispensation of the Gospel to unbelievers who are willing to hear and receive it (the job of the Apostle and the evangelist especially), and feeding these new believers with the Truth of God's Word so that they come to understand what the Gospel they believed is really about and become resilient to the lies of the enemy that war against their souls (the job of the Apostle, prophet, and pastor-teacher). When these new believers have learned the full system of Truth in the Bible, that is, when they have come to appreciate and believe the full picture of Bible teaching, not necessarily when they have come to know every single detail of teaching in the Bible, they are mature spiritually and can handle life in this world with considerably less risk of losing their faith in the midst of the lies and pressures of this world. At this point, they experience the tests of maturity that the Lord sends to harden them in their spiritual progress, so that they are able to help other believers to also develop and progress in the Truth.

If they pass those tests, the Lord gives them their own ministries according to the spiritual gifts that they have by the New Birth. Then they can do their own part in the Church to help new believers come to the Faith and help existing believers progress and grow in the Truth. Each ministry is different, and not everyone is an apostle, prophet, pastor-teacher, or evangelist. Some of us have gifts that are not even listed in the Bible, but regardless what our gifts are, they are a spiritual ability to help other believers to get to the Truth of the Bible, either by leading them to the Gospel or helping evangelists to get to them with the Gospel or by helping them get to a pastor-teaching ministry where the believer can hear the Truth and grow spiritually. As an example, someone who is gifted as a giver would have considerable ability to discern true need and how to minister to it so that the needy can actually grow in the Truth without stumbling over the gift that they are given by the giver. Believe me, it may sound simple, but it is a very skillful thing indeed. If a giver does not know biblical truth as well as he should, he will waste his material resources in his generosity and accomplish little of spiritual value to the Lord.

Furthermore, since the Apostles and prophets were given by the Lord for providing a revelation of the Truth to the Church through the writing of the Bible (Ephesians 2:20, compare Revelation 21:14; Acts 1:8 ), they were removed from the Church after the Bible was completed. The highest officers left in the Church now are pastor-teachers (1Corinthians 12:28 ) who are responsible to interpret the Revelation that the Apostles and prophets witnessed to and left behind in the Bible for other believers. There is no new Revelation and there will not be until the Lord returns to destroy Satan's hold on the Earth and reclaim the Earth for Himself. At that time, during the Millennium, the Lord will be teaching the unresurrected directly.

So, we cannot learn the Truth without the help of pastor-teachers, but, just as you said, we cannot trust everyone who claims to be a pastor-teacher, or even an apostle or prophet to be who they claim to be unless we test them against the Scriptures. Clearly, if anyone claims to be a prophet or apostle, they lie, unless by apostle they mean missionary. As for the pastor-teacher, we simply test what they teach and see if it is consonant with the Bible. There are very few true pastor-teachers. The gift is not merely what qualifies one to teach. Like every other believer, one with a pastor-teaching gift must grow spiritually and become mature, as well as face the tests of maturity. Then, in addition, they must go through a rigorous preparation that involves learning the languages that the original Bible was written in, that is, Ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic; learning textual criticism; and learning Ancient History and Church History. These tools are critical to dealing with the lies that weak believers are constantly being harassed with, and the pastor-teacher's job is not just to feed the believer with the Truth: it is also to protect him from the many insidious lies that the enemy threatens the spiritual safety of believers with.

I'm happy to encounter you here. It's good to see that you have and do use your spiritual common sense. I encourage you to find and commit to a reliable pastor-teaching ministry, if you haven't already - and you very well may have already - and hone that common sense into a sharp tool for making your way up the Mountain that we are called to assault.

Grace be with you.

Question #18:
From the beginning, the one thing that has been attacked is the word of God. Man has been working hand in hand with the devil to truncate the salvation plan of God just like God has been in cooperation with man to retain it.

Let's leave these books and speak on the bible as we know it. Do you even beleive or know the doctrine of Christ. Are we to take whatever has been handed down to us as authentic even in the light of scripture? Everyone has the bible but do we understand the doctrine of the NT testament? We r still talking about BOE and Jasher that were not included, what about the books that have been included that the doctrine has been perverted by Man?

Do you know that the church as we have it is not what the early apostles left behind? That the enemy has fully infiltrated the church and is spreading it's own doctrine?. If you have read the NT you will quickly discover that what you read is not what you hear on the pulpits. These early apostles were sold out to God . There were not carnal minded but now all the messages are on how God will enlarge you, bless you, give you that job e.t.c we have substituted the great God for mammoth. Now, a beleiver wakes up in the morning and all he thinks about is that shell job, or nnpc contract, that husband she needs, that car she asked God for.....forgetting that Yeshua said TAKE NO THOUGHTS.....in Roman's it states that Carnal mindedness is enemy with God  . Do you know what that means. It means that you cannot equates carnal thing to service of God. Now in church people share testimonies of how God blessed them with cars, spouses, jobs  . Like that's the gospel?

In the early church these men were losing their lives and possessions but we r being taught to gain our lives and possessions . My brother did you know that Yeshua did not come to die to give your riches . He came that you may have life and have it more abundantly? What is that life? A life of wealth and splendour like these men have made us beleive? Yeshua had disciples who had to leave ALL to follow Him? And now we are being thought to gain ALL and follow Him?.

You are so scared to question man thinking you will be questioning God whereas Gid wants you to reason with Him not man . Now we have In the church, one man who always brings the word and God only speaks to Him whereas the gifts of God have been given to all and we are all to admonish one another. Paul even thought that if ANY has a word.... . That God has given to ALL in different measures and we are not to dominate ourselves but that all are equal before God? That the eye cannot say to the ears that he is more important, that all the members of the body are equal?

The whole foundation of the church has been corrupted bro. We live in the last days friend and its perilous times. Now men of God preach peace and prosperity but the picture Yeshua paints is directly opposite . That the last days will be filled with destruction and perilous times. That at the end so many false prophets will arise. That the way is narrow. Abeg from all the churches in this world does it seem like the road is narrow? Doesnt it look like all is well?. That alot of folks are going to heaven?

Now we have carnal minded christains who have forgotten that the main message of the Bible Is the salvation of the soul for eternity. All the early church pointed us to was eternal life . That faith is the substance of things hoped for.....everytime you see hope in NT its talking about hope for eternity....the evidence of things not seen. What we dont see is heaven my friend. Scripture says "while we look not at the things that are seen but at the things not seen, for the things seen are temporal but the things not seen are eternal". Faith is not the substance of carnal things hoped for. . It's not the evidence of your car or job or house or yacht . Dont forget to be carnality minded is enmity with God and he that worship Yahweh must worship Him in Spirit not carnality or flesh but Spirit and truth.

Mature sons of God who are eating meat knows that you are not subject to man. After all we are called into liberty but the traditions have taught us to be subject to a select few who administer the oracles of God forgetting that we are not under the old guard but New. That you cannot mix old wine in new wine skin. Besides we were all gentiles who had to learn salvation.

Now we have men who say that the Spirit of Elijah and Elisha are greater forgetting the words of the Lord that everyone born of woman, none has been as great as Jojn the Baptist but he that is least from the Kingdom of God is greater than John . And someone will still take us back to when Elijah was alive? Forgetting that Peter says these men of Old wondered at the type of salvation that the world will see at the time of Yeshua because they saw the coming of the messiah. Yeshua also told the apostle that their eyes are blessed because prophets of old longed to see what they see but could not.

So now we have scared and carnal Christian's who are scared to be independent from man and fully dependent on God.

I'm saying all these so that you see that even the 66 books that we have have been perverted in doctrine by the devil so it shouldn't be strange to you if some books are left out all together.

Tell your pastor to stop lieing to you. The world will be destroyed and for those who acquire wealth and think godliness is gain it will be a surprise. Like in the days of Noah so shall it be. For men shall be building and expanding . False doctrines shall be In abundance and the prophesy of peace will be loudest but the foundation of the Lord stand the sure. Dont be to trusting of man my friend. Man is evil but Hod is supreme. Dont be scared to question man. Because questioning man is NOT questioning God infact questioning man is really pleasing God.

We have really not heard the gospel my friend. What is being preached is not what Yeshua nor the apostles died for. Never think all is well for we have to always press into the Kingdom. It's not given on an platter. We have to discover it. Remember Yeshua words, it like a man that finds treasure, y will you. Be finding treasure if its given you on a platter. We must dig to discover the true gospel as man in collaboration with Lucifer has hidden it .

I'm saying all these but I perceive you wont get my points but it's also for posterity. For anyone who has questioned the rot and decadence in the church but ofcourse the prosperity is well known forgetting that Lucifer is the God of these world. Now we are taught to first look out for wealth before we look out for grace . Grace of God is measured by the scale of dollars and naira .

It's a personal race my friend, a race to escape the coming doom and destruction of this present world. Because the wicked will do more wickedly as the wicked days unfold  until full consummation of this wicked earth 

Response #18:
You are exactly right that the enemy's strategy is to attack the Truth. The Truth is the only way that he can be beaten in this world. That is precisely the reason that Satan looks to adulterate it with intrusions and lies like your books of Jasher and Enoch and the long endings of Mark 16 that your brother-in-arms is losing his mind over. This is why pastor-teachers have the responsibility to learn the original languages in which the Bible was written as well as Ancient and Church Histories and textual criticism, so that they can figure out exactly what the original text is.

As for how men have corrupted the Truth and ignored it and formed denominations that are largely antagonistic to the Truth, I agree that that is the case. That is why although I was born into the Methodist Church and had a Roman Catholic heritage and early exposure to the Jehovah's Witnesses and later exposure to various Pentecostal traditions, I don't go to a typical church now. I study under the pastor-teacher in charge of https://ichthys.com, and life has never been better. I happen to know from the Scriptures that that is how spiritual growth to maturity and production for the Lord works: by submitting to someone who possesses both the gift and the necessary preparation for teaching the Truth. You will find this in Ephesians 4, in Paul's admonitions to Timothy, in the examples of the Old Covenant where the priests were tasked with teaching God's Word to the people and the prophets taught anyone who would listen to them what the Lord was saying.

I reacted to the madness in the church visible much as many of us today, obviously including you, do: by deciding to be my own teacher. That is the path to incredible arrogance where you think you know something, but in fact you are incredibly ignorant and very loudly so too. I was there for a few years before the Lord had mercy upon me and led me to a gifted and prepared Bible teacher who could answer all my questions and equip me to read the Bible correctly and begin to see the answers for myself.

Between you and me, I think it is beyond doubt who is being lied to and who believes a load of errors. There is very little that you have said here that has any kind of truth in it. You know almost nothing of what the Bible actually says or what the history is, but you make so much of your own knowledge. I am not afraid of being faced with the Bible or the history, because I know exactly what the Truth is. I can also see where and when I'm in error because I've come to appreciate what the Truth really looks like. Have you?

Question #19:
Its very unbiblical to assume you need a pastor teacher to guide you as a NT beleiver. Heb 8vs 9- 11. This is not to say that some dont have a gift of teaching but ALL will be taught of God. Like you said rightly, the offices that the apostle occupied, no man can occupied again because God used them to lay the foundation of Christianity and another foundation can no man lay again than that which is laid. So there r no new revelations as ALL revelations must conform to the written word.

Paul, Peter and John admonished beleivers to work out your own salavtion, to prove all things. Beleivers have direct access to God and can know the mind of God independent of third party. 1 john 2 vs 27. Says ...you need not that any man teach you" it's a personal relationship not corporate. It becomes a church when we all come with our heart that has already been circumcised not waiting for man to instruct you. Christian's are supposed to know what God is saying and to know the voice of God via spending time in the word and being taught of the Holy Spirit. These are not the days of the prophets were a man expounds scripture  these are the days where All men can know God and expound scripture. Are some gifted in higher measure of teaching? Definately but not to the point where to fully instruct another beleiver as all beleivers if they allow God will know the voice of God fully and not need anyone to validate scripture. For instance, if I have one talent in teaching and you have 10 talents. If I utilise my 1 talent and you teach with your 10 talents, whatever you teach will be in alignment and agreement with what my 1 talent is worth.

The bible esp the NT should be the guide for any beleiver. We are all brethren and none is set higher than the other. The only office which were special were elders and deacons and these were for organisational purposes to ensure order not for commanding or directing or declaring the words of the Lord like some special being . These was allowed for the apostles because they were used by God to usher in the NT. So their words were scripture. We are to learn what has already been taught by them and pass it down through out generations without bringing in new revelations as we see today.

For instance, the doctrine of mammoth is a heavy devilish doctrine which almost all church practice but from the writings of the apsotlez, these was heavily frowned against. The beleivers were eternity minded and not carnal minded. They were not looking to be like Dangote or Otedola . They were not doing business seminars in their gathering. PAUL said in Roman's I decided not to know anything amongst you except Yeshua and Him crucified. Please dont get me wrong, I'm a successful business man but I'm waiting for The second coming. That what should be in beleivers minds not that car, or house or contract .

God did not redeem us to carnal things my friend but now all churches practically teach this. The bible teaches contentment but the 'church' teaches excesses.

You dont need teachers infact just like how the 2nd temple was destroyed and The jews dispersed that's what we have now in these last days. Christianity has been desolated and the abomination of desolation set in place as prophesied by Yeshua. He said when you see the abomination of desolation set in place know that the end is near

Do you know what d abomination that makes desolate? . Dont run after men as you have been given all thing that pertain into life and godliness. The world is evil and it's better to stand alone and make heaven than seek teachers. Yes if you find good honest ones not the ones that want God to enlarge your earthly coast and give you business expansion while you have no treasures in heaven . The ones that help you build mansions on earth but you have none in heaven. Understand that everytime Yeshua appeared in the NT it was for His kingdom advancement not to give Paul an oil exploration jobs or miracle spouse or babies . Yeshua is all spirit and He expects us not to dwell on earthly things because the earth will be destroyed all the same. So yes, that you job is not the glory or blessing of God . That your house or car is not the blessing of God. Any fool can make money. You dont even need God to make money .

Carnal minded is the 'church' of today. The abomination that makes desolate has been set as the representation of the Most High just like Zeus was set on the altar in the temple of God. We must seek out and come out from amongst them and be ye separate.

Response #19:
First of all, I actually quoted a Bible passage, so how is what I said unbiblical? Did I misrepresent what that part of the Bible said? Did Paul not say there that the apostle, the prophet, the evangelist, and the pastor-teacher are all given by the Lord "for the equipping of the saints for the works of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ?" This is actually what Ephesians 4:11-13 says. I did not make it up. I only repeated it in different words. So, your claim is false.

Second, is it your way to look at two Scriptures and prefer one to the other when you think that they disagree? The Scriptures cannot be broken, so Hebrews 8 cannot disagree with Ephesians 4. The question is how they are both true. On the one hand, the Holy Spirit is the Giver of the Gifts and the Empowerer of all of our Service to the Body, so it is really He Who is teaching through the pastor-teacher to the degree that the pastor-teacher diligently yields himself to Him. On the other hand, the prophecy of Hebrews 8 applies in full to the Millennium when the Lord Jesus Himself will be teaching Israel the Truth without any mediators, and the Millennium is only possible because of the Covenant that the Lord Jesus made for us in His Blood.

Third, what is the point of anyone having the gift of teaching, as you admit that some of us do, if we are not to be guided by teachers?

Fourth, what revelations must conform to the written Word if you agree that there are no new revelations? Either there are new revelations that must conform to the written Word just as the New Testament conformed to the Old or else there are no new revelations at all. Which are you claiming to be the case?

Fifth, Paul did tell us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, but I don't see how diligently listening to and obeying reliable teachers of the Truth as he also instructs us to do in Hebrews 13:17 is not the same as working out our Salvation with fear and trembling. Diligently accessing Bible teaching whether by listening to it or reading it or watching it in a video and comparing it to the Scriptures and believing what we are shown by the Scriptures to be true is work. It is the work we are called to do by the Lord (John 6:29; 1 Peter 2:2).

Sixth, clearly John himself was teaching the believers that he was writing to, so he could not have meant that they didn't need to be taught at all. Again, he is actually saying quite clearly that since he is writing to believers, they are not people who need to be taught that Jesus is the Christ. They already knew that. If they didn't, they wouldn't be believers and he wouldn't be writing to them. So, this is not at all a teaching that we don't need teachers.

Seventh, you are right that it is a personal relationship. That is a big part of having a free will. But we are a "called-out assembly," that is, an ekklesia, and as both the Lord and His Apostles taught us (see John 15; 1 Corinthians 12; and the teachings of the Lord's Supper), this assembly is a single unit with various functioning parts that are needed for the mutual building up of one another to full maturity. We all have a choice whether to do our part in helping each other grow spiritually and produce for the Lord and in receiving such help or not to. That is the sense in which it is a personal relationship: we each make our own choices about spiritual growth and production. It does not mean that we are expected to walk the spiritual walk alone. It does not mean that we are not to use our spiritual gifts to help each other.

Eighth, as for your claims about what these days are and the differing measures of gifts, I see nothing of the sort in the Bible.

Ninth, the Bible IS our guide, and it teaches us to submit to gifted and prepared pastor-teachers in order to grow up spiritually and become able to fulfill our own ministries in the Body. It also teaches us to test each pastor-teacher by comparing what he teaches to what is written in the Bible before trusting him with our spiritual well-being. As for elders (and bishops and overseers) in the New Testament, that is what the Bible called pastor-teachers (Acts 20:28; 1 Peter 5:1-3; Hebrews 13:17). You are also exactly right that we are simply to learn what the Apostles taught, but the right people to learn that from are pastor-teachers.

Tenth, there are false teachers abroad. There have always been. There were false prophets too even before the First Advent. There were false teachers in Apostles' Day as well. None of that means that we ought not to learn from pastor-teachers. It just means that we have to persevere in looking for gifted and prepared ones until the Lord brings us to them. If we are to avoid submitting to pastor-teachers because there are many who claim to be pastor-teachers who are only teaching lies, then the Corinthians were right to stop listening to Paul because they were being troubled by false "super-apostles" as they were called, and the Pharisees were right to reject the Lord Jesus because there were so many false Messiahs showing up and misleading the people. This is obviously wrong. We are commanded to test and prove all things and hold fast that which is good. If someone claims to be a pastor-teacher, test him and see if he is really one. If he is not, get away from him. If he is, settle in and receive spiritual nourishment and protection from him. That is the right way to deal with things, not to reject pastor-teachers altogether. That is not the biblical way.

Eleventh, as I said above, although we are many, we are one Body, and we have different gifts that are supposed to be used to build each other up spiritually. I know no part of the Bible that teaches either that we don't need teachers or that Christianity has been desolated at all. That is one of those things that you are unilaterally making up with no biblical proof.

Twelfth, the Bible is supposed to be our guide, as you said. Still, it would seem that you couldn't care less that it teaches us not to stand alone but to diligently seek the Truth, that is, to learn from those whom the Lord has by Himself gifted and prepared for the work of teaching believers the Truth so that they can grow to maturity and become able to fulfill their ministries in the Body of Christ. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that it is better to stand alone than to seek teachers. It does say that it is a sign of the wickedness of the last days that people reject sound teaching and prefer to collect around them multitude teachers to tell them what they want to hear. Quite often, that is exactly what those who claim to stand alone do: they read all manners of things written by all kinds of people with all kinds of agenda, and then they get puffed up with their pseudo-knowledge and begin to throw their weight around as teachers, leading everyone who is foolish enough to listen to them into terrible error and even apostasy (2 Timothy 3:1-9, 13; 4:3-4).

Now, I will tell you something that I hope that you will hear. I could be wrong, because the heart of man is very deceitful, but I think that you may be willing to respond to the Truth. You clearly understand that something is violently wrong with the church visible. That is a great step forward for you. To own that the churches and self-appointed shepherds in the churches today have a completely different agenda than the Great Shepherd Himself is the beginning of coming out from the spiritually near-dead assemblies that dot the face of the Earth. But when you actually leave them, you must seek for those who can teach you the Truth. It is impossible to grow spiritually and become strong enough to do your own part in the Church without proper spiritual nutrition, and that is the job of pastor-teachers: to feed you and protect you when you come out of those vile places where the wolves are consuming the sheep (Ezekiel 34:1-10). Gifted and prepared pastor-teachers exist. Although they are very few and far between, the Lord makes one available every time someone is willing to drop their arrogance and learn the Truth. But you have to actually demonstrate the willingness to learn from one by actually actively seeking them. I have seen for myself that when someone is unwilling to learn, the very gift of a pastor-teacher is wasted on them. In fact, pastor-teachers typically learn that it is best to stop offering their services and just take themselves out of the way to some place where anyone who actually wants to learn can find them.

No true pastor-teacher is in it for the money or the notoriety. They don't care to be visible. Theirs is a very sensitive job, and it is one that must be done with the utmost care. Failure carries a huge loss with it and major repercussions from the Lord. So, you will not soon find a pastor-teacher taking your trust in him lightly. If you will hear what I am saying, take the next step and actually submit to someone whom the Lord has prepared to help you become able to withstand the pressures of this war until the Lord returns for us.

Question #20:
I don't make claims like you, I state facts.
I don't need to prove anything to you, cos I don't have the luxury of time.
You can research on your own, if you think you can disprove what I said.

Stop going defensive, kindly answer the questions I asked you. I never called out your moniker when I made my first comment here, you called me out cos you wanted to prove me wrong , so the onus is on you and not me.

You think too highly of yourself to think the Lord can lead me to you.

I don't preach the BOE, I preach the 66books cos I'm content with it, but I don't discourage people from reading the book like you've done here, cos I see no reason to do so.

There are books in the heavenly library that are not even among the books in the Bible, I know you don't know this. Maybe you need to be caught up to heaven to know this.

This is the last response you'll get from me.

Response #20:
You're the sort that I am often tempted to laugh at. You state facts? Indeed! Where? Wherever you made a big claim, they become facts, because it was the great _____ who made them.

The only reason that I bother with people like you is because of the nature of this field. Lots of people come through here who are looking for Truth, then people like you who pretend to have something to do with it only deceive them so that they stumble in their walk with the Lord. Otherwise, I wouldn't even be talking to you.

As for calling you out, that was very uncharacteristic of me, but I did it because of your claim to stick with what is truly inspired. Why do you bother to stick up for words that essentially claim to come from God when they do not? Did you not read Revelation 22:18 or Jeremiah 14:14 in your own 66 books? Do you not care at all that when you pretend to this "humility" that you do, you put those who are weak in Faith at risk? There has never been a time in the history of man when warning negated free will. So, warning people not to treat something as the Word of God when it is not has never stopped anyone who wanted to go on and do so from doing so anyway. But it is always easier to just not care to warn the sheep that the Lord loves and has put in your charge. When you attack a shepherd for doing what you won't or when you make it more difficult for them to, then you certainly are not helping at all, and you can be sure that the Lord is not pleased.

As for disproving you, I already gave my answer in the post you quoted attacking me. You could have answered my own arguments there. I did put in my research there.

As for the heavenly library, I suppose you were expecting to impress me with your great knowledge. That is what I thoroughly dislike about people like you.

Question #21:
Firstly you r rong saying that elders are same as pastor/teachers . Elder is by election as any man can desire that role as explained by Paul but a teacher/pastor is a gift of the Holy Spirit like every other gift. Again, you r wrong placing a pastor/teacher as the watchman over the flock whereas the elder is actually the watchman by way of experience as seen in Act 20.

Response #21:
​1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
1 Timothy 3:1-7 (KJV)

Verse 2 in NASB reads:

2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach.

That is, Paul said, "if anyone wants to lead the church of God, that is a good desire, but he must be able to teach, that is, he must possess the gift of teaching in order to be able to teach, or else he cannot lead the church."

17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
(KJV) 1 Timothy 5:17

In the NASB, the above reads as follows:

17The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.
1 Timothy 5:17 NASB

That is, Paul said that elders are supposed to be working hard at the Word and teaching it, and if they are, they are worthy of double honor.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
(KJV) Acts 20:28

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
(KJV) John 21:15-17

2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. 3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. 4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
(KJV) Acts 6:2-4

​1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
(KJV) 1 Peter 5:1-3

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby
(KJV) 1 Peter 2:2

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 3:2

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
(KJV) Hebrews 5:12-14

That is, just like Peter, elders are supposed to "feed" the Lord's Flock with the milk and the strong meat of the Word depending on their spiritual development. We also see that this "feeding" is called "ministry of the Word" and "laboring in the Word" and "teaching." This is what the Bible actually says, not some idea anyone may pull out of their uninspired head.

The elder was the teacher. He was not elected to any office. You cannot see anything about election in the passages above. He was selected to be an elder if he had the gift of teaching and met the other requirements that Paul laid down for Timothy. Each church could have more than one pastor-teacher, that is true, but there is no rule at all in the Bible that that was always to be the case. In fact, considering Timothy's authority and other examples in the Bible, it seems to make sense to expect that a pastor-teaching ministry is not a team affair. Paul told Timothy to be careful to select the men whom he trained for the teaching ministry (2 Timothy 2:2) and to be careful to teach authoritatively, not in committee. So, while a church that loves the Truth could be served by multiple pastor-teachers, the reality often is that the church visible is a mixed multitude, so the pastor-teacher has to be careful to keep his teaching untainted by others who may not respect the Truth as he does. As a result, many times, pastor-teaching ministries are run solo whether in a physical assembly or "out in the wilderness."

So, I cannot agree with you that the elder was not a pastor-teacher. In fact, what made him an elder was that he was a believer with a teaching gift who was also able to pastor or shepherd (both words mean the same thing) the Church. It is because he can use his teaching gift to pastor that he leads the church. Women who have the same gift, for example, are not allowed to pastor because pastoring is exercising spiritual authority over others (1 Timothy 2:12-13). This is only allowed to men.

Question #22:
You are right as I agree that they r people who have the gift of expounding scriptures but my brother there is no where in the NT that states that you r subject to them in fact it's the elders that you r subject to because they acted as church leaders. The bible rather teaches us to be subject to one another and submit to one another. God can also bring His word through any beleiver in the congregation and if your pastor/teachers are the only ones speaking everytime then you r not in the true church. The pastor/teacher was not placed as an overseer but the elders. Besides it's not psstor/teacher but pastor and teachers, two different gifts of the spirit. Not all are called to be teachers but all are called to be taught by God through the word.

Response #22:
About not being subject to teachers because they are not church leaders, see my discussion above. In short, you couldn't lead the church unless you had a teaching gift and had matured spiritually and had been adequately prepared for the job. So, when Hebrews 13:17 commands us to submit to our leaders, it is actually commanding us to submit to teaching authority.

As for submitting to one another, as I said to you, we are together as one Body to build each other up. So, although the pastor-teacher exercises doctrinal authority over other believers, he also depends on other believers for other things that he cannot necessarily do for himself. For example, a pastor-teacher is always in need of encouragement. His is often a lonely work and he is often a shield for other believers so that the enemy focuses his attacks on him more than on anybody else around him (Zechariah 13:7; Matthew 26:31). For this reason, he ought not to be shy to ask for and depend on other believers for prayers (Hebrews 13:18, for example). That is how we submit to one another: by allowing them to help us with their own gifts.

As for God bringing His Word through just anyone, where does the Bible say this? What I do see in the Bible is this:

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying...40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 14:26, 40

That is, in the assembly, only what is good for building up believers in the Truth is what is allowed, and only in order. Who decides what is edifying in the assembly? That is the pastor-teacher or the elder. In other words, only if the pastor-teacher is confident that one is a reliable student of the Truth and a worthy person will he allow such a person to make an input in the assembly that will not cause harm to others there.

As for the issue of whether a pastor is a different thing from a teacher, do you see this anywhere in the Bible? As I said above, the pastor-teacher pastors God's Flock with his teaching gift.

As for whether everyone is called to be taught by the Lord, of course we are. But the Bible is clear that believers of the Church Age are to grow with each other's help, with Apostles, prophets, pastor-teachers, and evangelists specially instituted to oversee this growth (Ephesians 4:11-16). If we are to learn directly from the Lord in this Age without the mediation of one another, then we ought not to even have a Bible or even need an evangelist to proclaim the Gospel in order to be saved, ought we? Why should we need apostles and prophets to write the Scriptures or evangelists to tell us of the Gospel if we don't need pastor-teachers to learn the Truth systematically and mature spiritually?

Question #23:
Besides, there is no where In the NT where it states that you cannot grow without a man teaching you scripture . All you need is the sincere milk of the word which is the Bible and a willing heart. The new covenant states that All will be taught of God. John telling them that they need not that any man teach them was In reference to many false teachers. He told them that they know all things because they have already been taught. Haven't we already been taught by the bible? Dont we know all things from scriptures? So whatever any other person says will be in conformity with the word. The church is not a place where on teacher talks everytime. NO SIR. We r all brethren and all priests and Kings. Your teacher is not your Oracle. He too needs to be sat down and taught.

Response #23:
I think that all the above passages make it abundantly clear that the Bible DOES teach that the way to grow spiritually is to be fed the Truth by a pastor-teacher like Peter and Paul. The onus is on anyone who claims otherwise to show how there is any other way. Whether it is the milk for carnal believers or it is the strong meat of mature believers, both are fed to believers by pastor-teachers.

As for Hebrews 8, the Scripture is clear that it is referring to the Glorious Millennium of the Lord's Reign when our Lord will be ruling over the world from Jerusalem:

3 And many people shall go and say,
Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for out of Zion shall go forth the law,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
(KJV) Isaiah 2:3

2 And many nations shall come, and say,
Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
and to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for the law shall go forth of Zion,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
(KJV) Micah 4:2

As for John, this is what the passage says:

18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life. 26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
1 John 2:18-22 NASB

That is, John says to us that because antichrists are out and about, he is writing to confirm our faith which actually exists. That is, we believe that Jesus is the Christ, we do not deny Him. We retain what we heard from the beginning (that is, the Gospel we heard when we first believed), so we don't need anyone to teach us anything about Jesus Christ. We know that He is the Christ, God Who became Man to die for us on the Cross so that we can be saved. There is nothing new to be added to that. So, we don't need to listen to antichrists. John was writing to address many heresies that were arising about the Lord Jesus. At the time, the antichrists were teaching that He was not fully human. John was confirming to believers that there was nothing that the antichrists had to teach that they needed to hear. The Gospel they heard was accurate and complete. The Lord Jesus was fully God and fully Man.

I see no biblical reason for believing the things that you have been claiming here. The Bible is what we have been given to learn, and pastor-teachers are given to us to help us learn it, that is, to minister it to us. That is what I see in the Bible. I see nothing like what you claim here in the Bible. For one who has been judging who believes the Bible here, I think it is interesting that you have trouble actually sticking to what it says rather than making things up.

Question #24:
I agree it important to hear a gifted teacher to further expound the word but that teacher is not your lifeline. I dont go around seeking one bro and am at my best place spiritually. Its expected of christains to grow and there is nothing He wants to say that the Holy Spirit cannot teach you.

Response #24:
Why is it important at all to hear a gifted teacher further expound the Word? Because you enjoy listening to people talk?

As for your claim that the Holy Spirit teaches you, where does the Bible teach that He does it without using the pastor-teacher?

Question #25:
I dont think you sought after the God on your own because everybody that did so sincerely in scripture found Him . Y didnt you until you found your pastor? What you stated my friend makes me worry . Because Yeshua is light. And he that dwelleth in light CANNOT be in darkness. Where I am now bro is a place of zero confusion because the word is my guide. Forget about the Book of Enoch or Jasher because you guys killing these books cannot bring one verse that contradicts the bible instead you sit in your place of authority shooting down what you haven't read?.In all these things if your pastor doesn't teach you not to love this world nor to be carnality minded them you haven't started to know the real Christ. Because now, everybody is seeking God to enhance their lives or career. But we are to be dead to this world. That's all that matters bro. Forget greek and hebrew translation, the KJV is enough for the Spirit.

Response #25:
Well, if I was wrong about you, it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about someone. It appears like I only provoked your arrogance to don a new appearance. How exactly did you know that I never sought God on my own? You think you know me enough now to judge me too? Very well, take a number and get in line.

As for not being in confusion, you have written a lot of fictions on here, so I can understand if you want to believe that one too. By all means, believe whatever you want. It makes no difference to me, but as I told you, I am not on the same side with you, so don't expect me to agree with you in the lies you write.

As for your books of Enoch and Jasher, as I said before, believe whatever you want. I can't both write my responses and read and understand them for you too.

Question #26:
You dont need anyone to break down any words in greek or hebrew before you understand the scriptures . All the teachings have already been done because the WHOLE GOSPEL has been taught so what is new. What we need is the Holy Spirit to teach us not your pastor or teacher . If you have one then great but if you dont, forget it. These is not the old testament where God is giving you pastors after His own heart but this is the NT where God resides in you and will teach you himself with the word as a guide. We are to be brought to remembrance of the teachings of the apostles so I really dont know what your pastor teacher will teacher. Teach you how to read?

Response #26:
What I'm missing in all your proud statements is any proof that this is what the Bible actually teaches.

Question #27:
The teacher and pastor r like any other ministry gift, nothing special. So let me ask you. If your teacher teaches, then who teaches him? We are to admonish ourselves as Paul stated in Corinthains and other epistles. Dont get me wrong, teachers are needed but just like prophets, apostles, and the other gifts. We are not to seek them like our lives depends on them. We are all sons and are capable of understanding scriptures. I agree that all should not teach because teacher have a higher query before God as we understand from scripture.

Response #27:
Every teacher is taught by another teacher in order to mature spiritually and become able to teach (Ephesians 4:11-12).

Why are teachers needed? And how are prophets, apostles and other gifts needed? If we are all capable of doing it by ourselves, then why do gifts exist and why do we need each other?

Question #28:
Think about it, why didnt Paul seek after the apostles immediately after conversion? Teachers are good but camping with the Holy spirit and your KJV is the best my man esp in these days were the true church is hard to decipher .

Peace to you.

Response #28:
Paul was an Apostle, one of the Twelve (he was the Lord's replacement for Judas), so he was different from the rest. He was taught by the Lord Jesus Himself, just like the other Apostles were. Are you an apostle?

What's this about the KJV now? Have you inspired that one too?

Question #29:
My man everything I said here is scripture as regards carnality and the church infact you know nothing of scripture to feel that a NT beleiver needs a teacher to grow . That is a lie form hell brother.

Response #29:
I'm afraid I haven't seen this "scripture" you speak of. I just keep seeing claims upon claims, but I don't actually see the part of the Bible that supports the wild things that you say.

Question #30:
Hebrew 1 bs1-2. In the past God spoke through the prophets but in this days He spoke through the son. The word of the Son are in black and white. The Apostles has taught All the counsel of God as stated in the NT. SO what exactly is your teacher teaching?

Response #30:
The Bible has been written. That was the job of the Apostles and the prophets. The job of pastor-teachers is to interpret it.

Question #31:
It's a crime to distort scripture which is what you have done to say no none can grow without been taught. That my friend is a lie of passion . You r all talk no scripture.

Response #31:
How do you accuse me of a lie in the same breath that you are using to tell a big one too? Which response have I made to you without Scriptural witnesses for anything that I have said to you?

Question #32:
If you desperately need a teacher what about the prophet, apostles, evangelist...named before pastors and teachers? Didnt you seek them also. That's y u r so confused because men teach you.

Response #32:
Are you absolutely sure that you read my responses to you?

Question #33:
You beleive in a verse from a book quoted by Peter n Jude yet you dont beleive the book . Show me one verse that contradicts the bible. Ain't we to test ALL spirits first? How did you jump into conclusion? Let me guess. Your man god told you so you wont think for urself.

Response #33:
I don't see any proof for this insane claim that you and your cohorts keep repeating that anything from the book of Enoch was used in the Bible. Where is your proof? Am I supposed to see a vision of it?

Question #34:
In fact if you ask me friend, if you say apostles are done away with then more for the teachers. What r they teaching? To read the bible that is clear? ALL the counsel of God has been packaged in the book so what exactly r u saying? Its fear of man that is your greatest snare. You r afraid to trust God so you chase men . Hence when you were supposed to be alone with Yahweh like Paul you were chasing breakthrough and miracles so how do you expect to hear God. Then you ran after your godteacher.

Response #34:
By all means, ignore teachers. I only gave you the advice I gave because I thought that there might be something in you that would respond to the Truth, but as I said, I have been wrong about people before, so it's no great surprise that I am once again. It really makes no difference to me what you choose to do with yourself.

Question #35:
The bible is enough to navigate us if we are serious with God. If we die to this world and hate this world. If we deny ourselves and carry our cross everyday and follow Him. He won't deny Himself. He said, He that hath my comandment and doeth them, he it is that loves me and He that loves me, I will love and manifest myself to him . Why didnt He manifests himself to you because you were not seeking Him for who He is but for your carnal needs. NO you wont find Him then your teacher comes to finally brainwash you. In sure you cant question your teacher . Just like how you need teachers, then you should look for your godprophet, godevangelist...abi na only teacher pastor you see for that Eph 4 .

Bros my last comment with you. You are more confused than I thought. Just negodu saying you cannot grow without a man . 

Between the mistake you making is this. We are not our own teacher but the Holy Spirit will teach you all things. Not your godman but the Holyspirt. So I'm not reacting to the church by being my own teacher, but the Holy Spirit which is all I need is my teacher.

If you dont know the abomination that maketh desolate which even our Lord Yeshua spoke about and Daniel then truly you dont know any truth but what your teacher tells you. You are just wandering round in circle chasing your tails .

No offense bro I'm done commenting unless you ofcourse raise issue on the BOE or Jasher that we can all hear speak and put to test and I will apologize if the Spirit behind the books is examined here and proved evil if not please just keep quiet.

Peace to you

Response #35:
There's really nothing of value in the rest of your comment to respond to. You seem to have reversed at top speed and shot straight into insanity to get away from what I said. At least, you won't presume that we are on the same side in the future.

Question #36:
Please, explain what happened here, because I don't understand your theory of how Jesus appointed Paul to replace Judas;

Acts 1 v 22-26;
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

And ask for your talk on gifts, I thought you earlier mentioned the Holy Spirit withheld some of them from the church, abi you don change mouth again?

Response #36:
This is what happened:

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 12:4-6

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(KJV) Ephesians 4:8

That is, it is the Lord Who gives spiritual gifts to believers. Nobody is ever voted into a gift or office. So, Matthias was never an apostle. Luke merely told us that the disciples did something, not that what they did was right.

Also, we know that this happened before the disciples were given the Holy Spirit, so we can be sure that it wasn't sanctioned by the Holy Spirit.

Finally, we know how Paul came to the Faith. The Lord Jesus Himself was the One Who called him, just as He called the other Apostles in their turn earlier.

Bonus point: Paul made a point of pointing out his apostleship for the same exact reason as this confuses you: he was not one of those who were with the Lord Jesus before the Cross, and Matthias was voted by the disciples, so how could he be the replacement for Judas?

As for your question about gifts, refer to our previous discussions on the matter.

Question #37:
I'm really shocked to be honest. Did you miss out that part where the Apostles prayed to God before lots were casted that fell on Matthias?
Another thing please, where did Jesus appoint Paul as an Apostle to replace Judas?

Response #37:
I'm not sure how a prayer to the Lord sanctions anything. Is the Lord bound to sanction something just because somebody, Apostle or not, prayed for it?

Regarding your second question, did you miss this in my post:

"Finally, we know how Paul came to the Faith. The Lord Jesus Himself was the One Who called him, just as He called the other Apostles in their turn earlier?"

Edited.

Question #38:
I didn't miss anything. No doubt, Jesus called Paul. But as a replacement for Judas? how? why not Barnabas nor Mark?

How did you arrive at that conclusion Jesus called Paul for the purpose of replacing Judas?

Response #38:
I'm not sure why you expect me to be able to tell you why the Lord chooses one person to be an Apostle, but not another. Why did He choose Matthew? Why Peter? Why Andrew? Why didn't He call Mary Magdalene or Lazarus? Such questions are meaningless.

As to how I know that the Lord replaced Judas with Paul, it was because we know that the Apostles can only be 12. You will see that teaching in Revelation 21:14 and Matthew 19:28. If there are only 12 apostles, and Matthias was not an Apostle, but the Lord called Paul in the same way that He called the other Apostles, then Paul is the replacement for Judas.

Question #39:
If it was designated for only 12 people to be apostles, how do you reconcile your position with this statement by Paul?

Ephesians 4 v 11;
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers.

Did you see Paul pegging the number of Apostles to a certain number?

Response #39:
Did you see the Bible references that I offered? Is there a problem with them?

Nevertheless, Paul said what he said for two reasons:

1. 12 is "some." Not everybody is an apostle, and there are certainly apostles. So, only some of us are apostles. 12 is some.

2. "Apostle" is a word that means two things in the New Testament. One of them is the 12 special messengers selected by the Lord Jesus to complete the revelation of the New Covenant for the Church. The other is "sent one," which is what a missionary is. Whoever was specifically sent out to take the Gospel to a place was an apostle. Barnabas and Apollos are examples of such people.

Question #40:
Yeah right, 12 is some...2,000 is also some, 150,000 is also some. You haven't mentioned where Paul pegged the number to 12, except for your panel beating of the scriptures.

The Apostles who prayed and seeked the face of God before selecting Matthias as one of the 12. But you're here telling us otherwise that Matthias was never an apostle.

Interesting. Very interesting. I guess the "spirit filled" Apostles made a "mistake" selecting Matthias as one of them  

Response #40:
The Bible has to say something only once for it to be true. It does not need to repeat it in every single place that it refers to it in order for it to be true.

The Bible has already made it clear in Revelation and Matthew that there are only Twelve Apostles of the Lamb. Paul does not have to repeat it again here. If you insist that he does, then you have to explain why he does. For myself, I am perfectly at peace with what I read. I don't see any difficulty in understanding it in light of everything else I read in the Bible.

As for the election in Acts 1, the Holy Spirit was given to the Church in Acts 2, so they did not do that election under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Also, as I said, the Bible does not teach that because we pray for something we will definitely have it. If that were true, then the Lord would have removed Paul's "thorn in the flesh" when he asked, and the Lord would have left Peter alone when he protested against eating unclean animals. The disciples may have prayed, but they were in error. The Lord is the One Who appoints His Apostles, just as He is the One Who gives every believer their unique spiritual gifts, and He is not limited to any two men we think that He must choose from. These things are common sense, but I know that you are a lover of lies, so it's not as if you can bear the Truth. I am answering you because it is a good question and others whose hearts are open to the Truth may learn from it.

Question #41:
@______ if anyone cannot lift verses from either BOE or Jasher to contradict the bible then there is no need wasting time. So many people acting like God's deputy criticizing what they dont understand. If their fake teachers write rubbish books in the name of Christiainity, they will accept it quickly because it itching their carnal ears.

Bible is our standard and God is the same Yesterday, today and Forever. Nothing is new. So those books will just fit into scripture.

Issue raised from the book I recall; first, Noah spoke praises to God at birth. But they forget that a donkey spoke to a prophet. If you ask a scientist who from the two has a better chance of speaking the human language, I'm sure your guess is as good as mine.

Second, that Angel's cant copulate with humans. That's funny because even archaeology has proofs of giants and Peter spoke of the sins of angels who were locked up till judgement. What sin did they commit? Furthermore, we r told that the Angel's that kept not their first estate, please which estate r we talking about?

Thirdly, that Enoch spoke to his son methuselah after he had ascended. But they forget that Yeshua spoke to Moses and Elijah in the Mount.

Fourthly, that enoch says 3000 cubits in one verse and 300 cubits in another, but they forget that acts 9 and acts 22 have different accounts of Paul's conversion. One says the guys with him heard the voice that spoke to Paul and the other says they didnt. So should we dump the book of acts also?

My brother, scripture says test all spirit and believe not every spirit. Let's put this book to test as I have and found it to be spirit filled as it points us to Yahweh and even Yeshua. Can u imagine? At a time where Yeshua had not been revealed, Enoch spoke of a son of man sitting on the throne beside Yahweh  

Now one guy is saying we need teachers to grow in this NT dispensation . What a clown. I can drop countless scriptures to refute such demonic doctrine. But this is even from Yahweh Hebrews 8:10-11 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. Yahweh made a new covenant tru Yeshua, not like the old where you had priest who served in the altar and sacrifices both for themselves and the sins of the people Heb8 teaches this.

God will put His laws in our hearts, you need not that any teacher teach you. If we all sit down with the KJV bible and study with the Hily Spirit we will all have a testimony of His goodness not one on this thread that sat down and got more confused whereas God is not the author of confusion. Jumping from frying pan to fire . We are to follow the ways of Paul after all he brought this gospel to the gentiles. Paul after conversion sought God alone, he didn't run to the apostles which would seem like the right thing to do. After all, those guys saw Yeshua physically.and he did not 

We must all work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The world is evil and the devil is looking for who to devour. So many false prophets and teachers. Any teacher will confirm whatever it is God has already told you if your life is truly sold out to God and you dont chase carnality but You have lost your life in this world to gain Yeshua. Problem is do we sit down to study, we r so engaged with rubbish and cares of this world forgetting that the same bible will be used as a yardstick when we die. We major in the minor and minor in the major. We must die daily and be doers of the word. We must do scripture to show love. Love for God is an action word not about singing and crying and being emotion. Whatever Yeshua has commanded is what we must do. The NT is not an advise but a commandment. We must not chase mammon for God hates it and we cant serve two masters. Mammon is the greatest enemy of the church. The same thing those ancient jews were chasing from their conquered neighbours That's y dey had different gods, gods of agriculture, god of fertility, god of rain, god of thunder, all the things Yahweh gives naturally by serving Him is what people chase that y Yeshua said take no thoughts for your life becos Yahweh wants us to serve Him only.

I pray someone reading this finds place to sit down with the gospel, forget the BOE and Jasher as you dont need it to grow. Know the voice of God from the bible so when other false teacher speak, you can discern foolishness.

Response #41:
This response is not quite for you, so don't feel like you should respond. I only want to answer some things in your post that want answering for the sake of those who believe the Bible.

Non-contradiction of Scriptures does not make anything Scripture, and that is not to say that your books of Enoch and Jasher don't contradict the Scriptures. A teaching or explanation of Scripture ought not to contradict Scripture, but that does not make it Scripture itself. Scripture is only that which is inspired or breathed by God.

Although it is a common tactic to try to drag the Bible down to the level of all manner of insane pseudo Scripture to try to legitimize those pseudo Scripture, the Bible is non-contradictory, so Acts 9 and Acts 22 are not contradictory accounts of Paul's conversion, in spite of how much you wish that to be the case to prove that the Bible is no different than your false Scripture. This is the same thing that ____ tried to do with the biblical accounts of Araunah's threshing-floor in 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles. He failed too. These are the two passages that you invoke here:

[7]The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one.
Acts 9:7 NASB

[9]And those who were with me saw the light, to be sure, but did not understand the voice of the One who was speaking to me.
Acts 22:9 NASB

Nowhere in the above are we told that Paul's companions did not hear the voice. What we are actually told is that they did hear it but they did not understand it. The KJV does say "heard not," but that is not a good translation in that case. The NIV1984 and NASB (shared above) both agree that the word is "understand," not "heard." Consider John 12:27-30 and Revelation 1:10, 15, for example, to see that voices from Heaven (in the first instance, the Father's Voice, and, in the second, the Son's) are rather unusual. Unbelievers, like the Jews in John 12 appear to only hear a sound, but not anything intelligible to them.

Regarding Hebrews 8, I have not seen your refutations of my explanation that it refers more fully to the Millennium than to the Church Age, just as Isaiah 2:3 and Micah 4:2 clearly teach. I just see your continued claims without any proof at all. As it is, your behavior is very consistent with disrespect for the Bible because you continually ignore what it says in order to believe what you want to believe.

As for a teacher confirming what God has already told you, why is that even necessary? If God has spoken to you, why do you need a mere man to confirm it? What you are not saying is that you have preconceived notions that you only seek people to affirm for you, so that you will feel confident that what you believe is true. That is precisely what Paul meant in 2 Timothy 4:3-4. So, it is you and your kind who have itching ears and heap to yourself teachers to tell you what you want to hear, except that you pretend that they are only confirming for you what God has already told you, a most ludicrous thought.

Edited.

Question #42:
Ihedinobi3, you are obviously deluded. You are here telling us the 11 Apostles who were Spirit filled made a mistake appointing Matthias to be one of them...even after seeking God's counsel?

Acts 1 v 20-26;
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Ihedinobi3, you are that same person preaching a strange doctrine that the Holy Spirit withheld some of his gifts (e.g. prophecy, tongues e.t.c.) from the church.

1) On what authority do you stand to call another a lover of lies?
2) On what authority do you stand to tell us the Spirit filled Apostles made a mistake selecting Matthias as one of them?
3) Where in the scriptures did Paul boast or mention he was appointed by Jesus to replace Judas? Oh, I forgot, your common sense is now the basis to interpret the scriptures.

You are a joke.

Response #42:
I am grateful to the Lord that I don't have to do anything for you to expose yourself.

The Spirit was given in Acts 2. The disciples did the election in Acts 1. Yet you claim that it was Spirit-filled apostles who did the election in Acts 1. Your lies are incredibly obvious. Only people who love lies like you would agree with you.

You claim too that they sought God's Counsel, yet this is what the Bible actually says:

[24]And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
[25]to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."
Acts 1:24-25 NASB

That is, they gave God two options and told Him to pick one. There is nothing in there that even looks like a request for counsel. What if God didn't want any of the two that they chose? What then?

As for your claims, it is interesting that you are still trying to make me seem a liar just like you. I have nothing more to say to you about that, ____, beyond what I have already said that you haven't answered. If you want to keep lying about the Bible, keep doing so. Just don't think that you will succeed at making me seem like you. You won't.

Question #43:
These guys are wolves in sheep clothing my brother. They are apostates who do not know God nor the spirit behind the WORD. I dont even respond to ____ again because I caught him after he said Peter and Jude didnt kjow what they were saying . But aihedioha is smarter he only said Peter and Jude said it yes but that the present book of Enoch is false but cannot prove it.

For they think they are God, they are always investigating the WORD of God. There was on that said one time that Paul was not a brethren then later said Allah and Yehweh are same because they always seek new wisdom, strange fire, they feign godly but really are evil men who stand against the word of God. But I know your type. CONTINUE i only pity lazy people who wont study but be seeking for pastor/teacher to show you the word of God in greek, Spanish, german  meanwhile he quoted demonic translation of NASB. I just dey look the guy. KJV is your only true word of God ooo.

Word is enough for the wise and a sentence for a fool. If you dont beleive me sit down with the WORD and I'm saying for started the NT not OT. You see you must know the new will before you know the Old will. The Old will serves as historical scriptural records not for actual consummation by present day beleivers because all those promises Gid gave to Israel has already been fulfilled. You are no more fighting the Amoritez and sodomites, and Perisites as Olukoya will have you beleive . For the weapons of our warfare are not CARNAL.....for though we walk in the flesh we do NOT war after the flesh.

People dont know scriptures but carry the letter on their heads. See the guy now said Mark 16 is wrong abi what did he even say again? Godman . God's assistance. If you dont beleive one why beleive all? And if you dont beleive all why beleive one? Hyporcrite really your father is the devil. 

Response #43:
The KJV is inspired too? How is it inspired?

If it is "the only word of God," as you claim, why then are you claiming that your books of Jasher and Enoch are also the word of God? Does your KJV contain them too?

That is just one of a staggering number of contradictions in the things you say, yet you claim that you are not confused.

Question #44:
Ihedinobi3,
Thank you sir for your testimony. Very nice.
I will look through your mentioned links soon enough.
I appreciate you explaining your spiritual journey (complete with the fact of pride and then the gift of humility).
The more I, personally read His word, the more I realize that knowledge, wisdom and understanding are such tremendously precious gifts...and that I have to continually be open to humbly receive them...

...I am in agreement with both of you that the "book" isn't relevant to the Word of God as has been passed down through the ages.
My concern is the distraction being on things that have no power to "save".
We need to be concerned on what the Word already contains and not look for ways to doubt and discredit Christ' Word... (cause that's what it ultimately does).
One thing is for sure: Enoch (of Gen.5) has chosen eternity just through the example of his daily life.
He's already made his "calling and election sure."
That's a nice blueprint for me.

Response #44:
Excellent. I quite agree with your response. I hope that you find the links useful.

Question #45:
I meant translations wise but let's leave that as some prefer NASB I love KJV so let me use another example that both KJV and NASB acknowledge.

In Mattew 23 vs 35 Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Are you aware that the Zecharias son of Barachais spoken of here is not the same referred to that died between the altar . It was infact a mix up as bible scholars acknowledge it was actually Zecharias son of Jehoida as seen in 2 chron 24 vs 20. And some say son of Baruch but definately not son of Barachais.

Hope you know archaelogically the book of Daniel cannot be proven. The bible says Darius was the first King of Medes but archaeology says it was Cyrus. But Yeshua quoted from Daniel. So who is lying. Let God be true and all men liers.

Grow up spiritually my man. Leave the letters and chase the spirit. You r not smarter than God.

Response #45:
You might as well argue that all the people whose names are different in 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Chronicles, for example, Araunah who is also called Ornan, are not who the Bible says that they are, or that the Lord Jesus is not the Christ, since His Name was not Emmanuel. People were identified by multiple names in the Bible, so sometimes we are speaking of the same person even when we are actually using different names. Zechariah's father is not the only one whose name the Lord Jesus used differently. When He taught the Pharisees the lesson of the Sabbath in Mark 2, He identified the high priest as Abiathar, but we see Ahimelech as the priest in 1 Samuel 21. You could also argue that that it is a contradiction, when you consider that Abiathar was the son of Ahimelech in 1 Samuel 22:20, but that would be ignoring the fact that there was another Abiathar who was the high priest at the time, possibly the grandfather of the one named in that verse.

In the case of the Barakiah, that is another name of Jehoiada, just like Benoni was another name for Benjamin and Jedidiah was another name for Solomon.

I'm not sure what archaeology has to do with anything. The Bible is a historical authority. Archaeology is a discipline that seeks to use incomplete information to postulate about the past. I would take the Bible's testimony over archaeological findings any day of the week. Nevertheless, your claim is false. Cyrus founded the Persian empire, but Darius in Daniel was a Mede. The Bible does not say that he was the first king of the Medes, it only says that he was the Mede who conquered Babylon.

As I said, you have no respect for the Bible, and you love lies.

Question #46:
Same way I asked him some questions based on some very confused statements he made here and instead of answering he went defensive.

Dude is clearly confused and there are so many of his likes here. Someone who knows absolutely nothing and yet claiming he has been called into the teaching ministry. Instead of humbling himself to learn , he's here glorifying and magnifying his confusion.

Can a Spirit filled believer actually say the kind of things he's said here?
May God help him.

Response #46:
Why on earth would I answer your questions when you ignored my challenge that you should prove your spurious claims? Am I your slave? If you don't want to answer my own challenge, you don't deserve any answers from me.

Question #47:
Ihedinobi3 certainly knows better than the 11 Apostles who prayed and sought God’s counsel before appointing Matthias as one of them.

Please why didn’t the Holy Spirit in any part of the scripture reject Matthias’ apostleship?

What manner of stupidity is this? So the believers whom Jesus taught them that if they ask God for bread, He won’t give them stone will sit back and watch the Apostles being misled?

It’s very obvious you are confused as ____ pointed out.

You can’t show one scripture where Jesus appointed Paul for the purpose of replacing Judas. Kudos, Ihedinobi3 you’re doing a great job. Even Paul never insinuated Jesus called him for that purpose, but somehow, even Ihedinobi3 knows what Paul never knew.

Isn’t God marvelous?  

Dude you are a liar;

1) Not a single scriptural evidence where the Holy Spirit appointed Paul for the purpose of replacing Judas.

2) You have clearly told us the Apostles made a mistake in appointing Matthias as one of the twelve after committing everything to God.

3) You cannot show us one scriptural evidence where the Holy Spirit rejected Matthias’ apostleship.

4) To top it all, you mentioned Matthias was never an apostle, which is blatant contradiction to the scriptures.

All hail Ihedinobi3, the one who knows more than the 11 Apostles, Matthias and Paul combined.

And Jesus conferred the keys of the kingdom to Peter, same Peter who led the Apostles in appointing Matthias after seeking God’s face on the matter.

Matthew 16 v 18-19;
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Oh well, Ihedinobi3 surely knows somehow Jesus appointed Paul to replace Judas, even without one scripture pointing out such.

Response #47:
**No response**

Question #48:
To show how dubious and unlearned you are. Zecharias the son of Barachais actually existed and wrote the book of zechariah same as zecharias according to some scholars. Zecharias of Barachais is well know and that's not how he died. Stop being silly and learn. You know nothing about anything spiritual. Zecharias the son of Barachais and zechariah son of berechiah. Are same. No scholar says Jehioda and barachais are the same . That's just your made up lie to further distort history.

And to show your total disregard for history, belshazzar was the last king of babylon, the next Kingdom was Mede and Persia which is the same as either Mede or Persia. It was kind of a dual kingdom for which Cyrus is credited as being the first King. There is no archaelogical explanation for Darius because historically after belshazzar is Cyrus and no gap found. Yes I agree that the bible is the final authority and man is limited. This just shows that records can be lost and misrepresented as man is the one writing the letters not God but God is the inspiration and Spirit behind the letters. These are after all historical records and one detail can be mixed up. It doesnt mean the bible lied is just that the records handed down could be misinterpreted or a detail lost to time. The important thing is the Spirit behind the word.

I'm sure If I check my journals I will find other examples like this. My man I have no time for this discuss as you r devoid of the truth and the Spirit. Your carnality has clouded you sense of reasoning into the things of the Spirit.

Whatever makes you sleep at night brother.

Response #48:
I didn't realize that we are quoting scholars now. I was merely telling you what the Bible says, but of course, just like your brother-in-arms's efforts to prove that I'm a liar just like you lot, you are fighting to prove that the Bible is a liar just like your pseudo Scriptures too.

To be clear, the Lord Jesus was talking about the Zechariah that King Joash of Judah had murdered, not the Zechariah that lived so long after and wrote the book we now have of that name. The Scriptures are clear how Jehoiada's son died. The Lord Jesus referred to it for a reason too (namely, the wickedness of the Jews of His Time that was just like the wickedness of Joash too). There is no doubt what He was meaning to do. As for the "son of Berechiah" part, I've just checked and found that it is not in Codex Sinaiticus, the earliest manuscript we have of the New Testament. The phrase was written in the margin by a later hand (source: https://ichthys.com/mail-bible-interpretation6.htm, see also picture evidence below and http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=33&chapter=23&lid=en&side=r&verse=35&zoomSlider=0), so it's not actually a part of the Bible.

The answer I gave was wrong, but then it was not improbable, because there are many instances where people in the Bible were know by multiple names, just as I demonstrated. But, as I said, Truth is wasted on you, so I don't expect this to do anything except strengthen you in your error and rebellion against the Truth.

As for the Babylon, you should probably read Daniel again and then study up on the history. The Medes and Persians were two separate peoples that formed a kind of alliance that resulted in the "dual kingdom" that you spoke of. Cyrus was not their first king (source: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Cyrus-the-Great). Darius was before him, just as Daniel recorded.

I don't really mind what you have in your journal. That's your business. From where I stand, you just have excuses for putting the Bible on a par with uninspired works that you like to pretend are inspired.

Question #49:
Thank God you realise you error . So the point is this, zechariah Yeshua spoke about is the one King Joash murdered in 2 chron 20 but the son of Berechais was an error like I rightly said. That son of berechias is the son of berechias that wrote the book of zechariah so the wrong Father of the Zechariah in question was used. Instead of Jehoida, it erroneously said berechais. That my friend is not an error of God but man . Deal with it bro.

I tell you brother, there is not a single evidence of Darius as a King of Medes and Persia. Please any one can Google this so I stop arguing with this clown. Please google the book of Daniel and you will see that majority scholars beleive its made up stories from maccabees era. Ofcourse I dont beleive this becos the fact man hasn't found him out yet doesnt mean he doesnt exist.

Atleast you learnt sometime today about the sons of berechais and instead of you to humble urself and thank me you still gloat in foolishness.

My point is man makes mistakes but God does not. Feast on the Spirit behind the words and not the letters. The letters are constantly killing you my man and you r sounding unintelligent while it's at it

Response #49:
When I make a mistake, I own it. I'm not like you or your friends who thrive on lies. If I am in error, I don't plan to stay in it, I get out as fast as I can. That is not true of you, so you really have nothing to your claims about your righteousness, about me, or about the Bible.

Translations of the Bible are not inspired, just as I pointed out with my incredulity at your claim that the KJV is "the true word of God." That is why pastor-teachers learn the original languages and textual criticism in order to figure out what the original text actually says. Otherwise, we can be wrong when we follow the translations of others.

The text does not say "Jehoiada" either, but we know that that was the father of the Zechariah in question.

I was not offering you any secular history. The Bible itself is a historical authority, and I am telling you authoritatively that Darius was a king before Cyrus. It does not matter to me what you want to believe there. I don't trust archaeology and secular history anywhere near as much as I trust the Bible. But you are free to follow the scholars that you can't stop talking about. I'm not sure what good it has done for you so far.

I'm sure I would be very happy to thank you for any good that you've done me, but you've been no good to me except for exercise. You have heaped lies upon lies upon lies even in the face of mounting evidence against you. Not once have you acknowledged your error and "thanked me" for correcting you. You have threatened the spiritual safety of believers that have opened this thread since you started posting on it, and you think that I owe you thanks?

I have no interest in your opinions about me.

Question #50:

Clown. So full of pride. I'm a son of my Father and as yet you have not convicted me of any error but I have of you. You have no scriptural evidence for the rubbish you spew but I show you evidence from the very word your fake pastor/teacher couldn't teach you. When you have the Holy Spirit He leads you into All truth that's y I knew about the error of berechais without having to know all greek like your pastor/teacher that couldnt teach you before you came here to spew trash.

So now you know, you can let your congregation know that when books are translated errors might occur.

Maybe it will take you 25yrs to understand your error in criticizing a book that you cant raise any issue with . A book that is amongst the oldest in it's right and has been translated probably more than a thousand times. But like I said my friend which is something that is too high for your carnal mind. The letter killeth, the spirit giveth life.

Dont thank me again joor. I delight and derive joy in eradicating spiritual foolishness and deception.that alone is my joy.

Still waiting for you to depute Enoch if not just shut up bro. Let's test it here. Enough of this fooliness 

Response #50:
I am not the Holy Spirit. I don't convict people of anything. But I have definitely pointed out a sampling of your errors and lies that you have consistently refused to own up to. Do you really think that because you've refused to admit all your lies here that you have not been caught in a lie several times here?

When I asked you how the KJV is inspired, did you admit that you were wrong that the KJV is "the true word of God," a false claim that you were hoping to use to seal your other lie that Acts 9 and Acts 22 contradict each other?

What about your lie that Hebrews 8 teaches that we are not supposed to have teachers, in spite of your other madness that there are teachers, but they just exist to entertain us? Have you offered any kind of acknowledgment for Isaiah 2:3 and Micah 4:2 that I gave you to correct your error?

What about your claim that the book of Jasher teaches that the nation Israel existed before God created nations in Genesis 11? Have you accepted correction and confessed your error there?

What about your claim that I never sought God for myself in spite of what I said to you about me, a story that has been told in varying detail multiple times on this platform, but which you pretended was a lie even though you don't know me at all?

What about your lies about the early believers: namely, your claim that they did not have the Bible, but they had all these books you love so much? Have you owned up to your error there?

I only have to go through your posts once to pull up a staggering amount of lies that you have told here with absolutely no indication that you knew you were wrong when I or anyone else showed you your error.

As for Berechiah, you did not know anything about the error there. You just assumed that it had to be wrong for no reason. I had to go and do the research and post it here that "son of Berechiah" was not even in the original writing of Matthew. You know nothing at all. You are wildly ignorant, but you keep making things up unrepentantly, yet you think you have won some kind of victory because I owned up to a mistake that I made. How is that your victory? You have learned absolutely nothing from this engagement with me. You have only gotten worse in your rebellion. I, on the other hand, have been exercising myself in remembering what the Bible teaches about all the challenges and lies that you've been throwing at me and getting greater insight into the Scriptures from answering you. And you think that that is something that you did? If I do not flip the pages of the Bible to answer you, or turn to https://ichthys.com whenever I need help with the original manuscripts, I would not find out or confirm what is true in some of the responses that I have given you. How is that any kind of gain for you? You have been doing the enemy's work here, and you think that you have something to celebrate as a result? You are truly pathetic.

And you talk of "when books are translated errors can occur?" You? Are you not the one who attacked my submission that pastor-teachers ought to learn Ancient Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Ancient History and Church History, and textual criticism to access the original text of the Scriptures? And now, you say that? You are shameless.

As for your book of Enoch, you can wait a little longer. I have said multiple times that it is not Scripture because it is not inspired by God. But if you insist that it is, by all means keep using it as such. The loss is all yours. It's not my business at all.

Question #51:
I decided to ignore you when you spoke about spurious claims, but since you keep on harping on that statement, please I would like to know the spurious claims I made according to you.

Study to show yourself approved brother. I don't dislike you. I just pray you come out of your shell.

Response #51:
**No response**

Question #52:
Your r silly brother very silly. When did I make all this your claims . R u sure u ain't hallucinating? That hebrews 8 said said we shuldt have teachers? I said hebrews 8 speaks of the earthy ordinances which have been done away with. That we dont need priest who mediate for us or pastor/teachers who stand in the gap to bring the word like your little cult you attend. That KJV was d inspired word? I thot I told you I meant translation. I for one dont read any other than KJV but I raised the issue of zecharias because both KJV and NASB noted the error.

I didnt know anything of berechais yet I'm d one that raised it? No wonder you r indeed a son of your father the devil. How can I assume such when even after your erroneous claim that Berechais was another name for jehoiada like as if you were d priest in the naming ceremony . Clown.

You are an apostate my man. Any spirit filled beleiver can sense the demon at work in your life. Read the whole books of Hebrew and understand our role in this new dispensation. You have alot to learn. A true beleiver doesnt need a useless pastor/teacher like urs cause I see you ain't any wiser anyways. I never said the early beleivers never had the bible but that they didn't have d bible as we have it. As in all in one book but they had it in different books or Did you canonize it for dem. Fool that keeps lieing upandan.

I challenge you to draw up my previous post so we see all your rubbish lies you just stated here about me. If not hold you peace.

Baby Christian that cannot interpret scripture because you lack the Holy spirit but need Zeus, your pastor/teacher to speak on your behalf.

Learner. Everyone reading here knows all the truth. And the lies you have been peddling against me without proofs but ofcourse. You have been doing that all day.

Empty barrel. All talk no scripture reference . Deceiver of the brethren posting rubbish links of your village high priest expecting the gullible to fall prey. But we r here as the servant of the Most High to resist your foolishness and perversion.

Response #52:
Okay then. Let's see if you are not lying through your teeth again:

You said, "Its very unbiblical to assume you need a pastor teacher to guide you as a NT beleiver. Heb 8vs 9- 11. This is not to say that some dont have a gift of teaching but ALL will be taught of God." (Source: https://www.nairaland.com/post/83986040)

So you actually claimed that gifts of teaching are useless since all will be taught of God. Nothing there about earthly ordinances being done away with, but we need not get into that.

My response was, "First of all, I actually quoted a Bible passage, so how is what I said unbiblical? Did I misrepresent what that part of the Bible said? Did Paul not say there that the apostle, the prophet, the evangelist, and the pastor-teacher are all given by the Lord "for the equipping of the saints for the works of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ?" This is actually what Ephesians 4:11-13 says. I did not make it up. I only repeated it in different words. So, your claim is false.

Second, is it your way to look at two Scriptures and prefer one to the other when you think that they disagree? The Scriptures cannot be broken, so Hebrews 8 cannot disagree with Ephesians 4. The question is how they are both true. On the one hand, the Holy Spirit is the Giver of the Gifts and the Empowerer of all of our Service to the Body, so it is really He Who is teaching through the pastor-teacher to the degree that the pastor-teacher diligently yields himself to Him. On the other hand, the prophecy of Hebrews 8 applies in full to the Millennium when the Lord Jesus Himself will be teaching Israel the Truth without any mediators, and the Millennium is only possible because of the Covenant that the Lord Jesus made for us in His Blood." (Source: https://www.nairaland.com/5450889/why-book-enoch-removed-bible/18#83995238).

That is, I explained to you that teaching gifts are necessary in the Church Age and that passage applies more fully to the Millennium.

Then, you said this again, "The new covenant states that All will be taught of God." (Source: https://www.nairaland.com/post/83997520)

I said to you again, "As for Hebrews 8, the Scripture is clear that it is referring to the Glorious Millennium of the Lord's Reign when our Lord will be ruling over the world from Jerusalem:

3 And many people shall go and say,
Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for out of Zion shall go forth the law,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
(KJV) Isaiah 2:3

2 And many nations shall come, and say,
Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
and to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for the law shall go forth of Zion,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
(KJV) Micah 4:2"

And you said this again, "But this is even from Yahweh Hebrews 8:10-11 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. Yahweh made a new covenant tru Yeshua, not like the old where you had priest who served in the altar and sacrifices both for themselves and the sins of the people Heb8 teaches this." (Source: https://www.nairaland.com/post/84011544)

And I said this again, "Regarding Hebrews 8, I have not seen your refutations of my explanation that it refers more fully to the Millennium than to the Church Age, just as Isaiah 2:3 and Micah 4:2 clearly teach. I just see your continued claims without any proof at all." (Source: https://www.nairaland.com/5450889/why-book-enoch-removed-bible/19#84013533)

So, three times you made this false claim, and three times I corrected you. Did you admit any error even once? Of course not, nor will you even now. Obviously, Hebrews 8 talks about what the Lord will do in the Millennium. Both Isaiah and Micah testify to that, but you continue to lie about it and refuse to own up to it. Now, you've twisted your lie to suggest that you were not saying that Hebrews 8 was saying that we shouldn't have teachers. You actually said that it is unbiblical that we need a pastor-teacher to guide us. Obviously, Hebrews 8 does not teach this at all. If it did, it would break Ephesians 4 and John 13:12-15; 21:15-17 among very many other Scriptures. But you won't admit your error even now.

As for KJV, you are saying that it is an inspired translation? That is no different than what you claimed before. So, make it clear now. Are you claiming that the KJV is inspired or are you admitting that you made a mistake?

As for Berechiah (and there are different spellings depending on the translation, but it's the same name), you are also the one that claimed that there was a contradiction between Acts 9 and Acts 22. Why should we believe that you knew what you were doing in this case any better than you knew what you were doing when you were challenging Acts 9 and 22?

As for the early believers, this is what you said, "Some people dont know that the early christains didnt have the bible in 66 books like we have it now grin but they were independent books of their own which were read separately and never collectively." (Source: https://www.nairaland.com/post/83817929)

In response, I said, "Of course, the 66 books of the Bible were not bound together in one volume at the time, but that was because the technology did not exist. Books were written on scrolls that had a physical limit to their size. You could only "bind" so many scrolls together into a "book." For that reason, the early believers actually kept copies of all the books of Scripture in their meeting places for public reading when they assembled. Then, if anyone could afford it and had the ability or could afford the services of a reader, they made copies of any given book that they wanted to own and read or have read to them privately.

As I have argued several times on this thread (and elsewhere), every writing of Scripture was clear to believers to be Scripture right from the moment that it was written throughout history, including during the time of Moses. No believer with any spiritual common sense and a heart open to Truth has ever been confused about what is Scripture and what is not. It is immediately obvious. The Bible itself says as much. Paul and Peter were still alive obviously when Peter affirmed that Paul's writings were Scripture. Paul himself commanded the churches that he wrote to to share his letters to them with other churches and to make copies of his letters to other churches for their own selves. He did that because he was full aware that he was writing Scripture to them. In the Old Testament, Moses consciously wrote everything he did on God's direct orders. Jeremiah did too. Even when King Zedekiah burnt the first uncompleted book of Jeremiah, his officials knew that it was Scripture and tried to persuade him not to.

As for the 66 books being available to the Church of the Apostolic Age, the New Testament was completed by the middle of the first century. Not only was it completed, it was also very quickly distributed as it was being written. So, believers throughout the world had access to the full Bible when the Apostles finished writing the New Testament. Nobody lacked for the Truth at any time."

So, yes, you did say that they just didn't have the Bible in one volume, but you claimed that they were not read collectively. Well, I told you that these books were kept in the places that they assembled and read to them at their assemblies. Did you accept correction in this case?

As for proof of your lies:

1. The book of Jasher

"Enoch was not a Hebrew? If you were well read you would have known that the first language was hebrew before babel. Or do you think it was English or Igbo? The book of Jasher which was also mentioned in the bible enlightens us on this." (Source: https://www.nairaland.com/post/83961396)

2. Your opinion of my spiritual journey

"I dont think you sought after the God on your own because everybody that did so sincerely in scripture found Him." (Source: https://www.nairaland.com/post/83997520)

3. About learning the original languages of the Bible

"Forget greek and hebrew translation, the KJV is enough for the Spirit." (Source: https://www.nairaland.com/post/83997520)

And right here, you have repeated this again: "All talk no scripture reference."

Nearly all my responses to you, if not all of them, have been peppered with Scripture references and outright quotes, but you're not ashamed to repeat this again.

This is not a complete list of all your lies. It would take too much out of me to fetch them all. These ones are enough proof that you are a liar just like _____ and the rest of you.

Question #53:
i will now begin to show how demonic and perverted you are. did you just say Heb 8 is speaKING to the millemiun church? lets allow scripture do the talking not you, me or your useless pastor/teachers.

Heb 8 'Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “S ee ,” He says, “ that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain .” But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them, He says, “B ehold , days are coming , says the L ord , W hen I will effect a new covenant W ith the house of I srael and with the house of J udah ; N ot like the covenant which I made with their fathers O n the day when I took them by the hand T o lead them out of the land of E gypt ; F or they did not continue in M y covenant , A nd I did not care for them , says the L ord . F or this is the covenant that I will make with the house of I srael A fter those days , says the L ord : I will put M y laws into their minds , A nd I will write them on their hearts . A nd I will be their G od , A nd they shall be M y people . A nd they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen , A nd everyone his brother , saying , ‘K now the L ord ,’ F or all will know M e , F rom the least to the greatest of them . When He said, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.'

Hebrews 8:1-11,13
https://my.bible.com/bible/100/HEB.8.1-11,13

Get your pen and notepad as you are about to be taught in the school of the Spirit and Yeshua alone will take the glory. verse 6 Yeshua obtained a more excellent ministry by which He is the mediator of a better COVENANT which has been enacted on BETTER PROMISES. For if that first covenant had been faultless there wont have been a need to seek another. For finding fault Yahweh said, the days are coming when i will make a new and better covenant NOT the one He made with them when He brought the,m out of Egypt but THIS IS THE COVENANT HE WILL MAKE, HE WILL PUT HIS LAWS IN THEIR MINDS AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS, HE WILL BE OUR GOD AND WE HIS PEOPLE, THERE WILL BE NO NEED FOR Any to teach them, as God will be the God of all not some. In the old covenant God spoke to a select few like prophets, priests and Kings who had respect to the old covenant but in this days of the new covenant He speaks to ALL. my friend the bible is a book of prophesy and the days God spoke about are now. How can you say its a covenant for the millemium when clearly it speaks firstly of the old and the new. Can you see how evil and wicked you are. YOU ALWAYS PERVERTING SCRIPTURE and judging the scripture like you were consulted before it was written. Any spirit filled believer can read that chapter and quickl;y understand what its saying. The new testament beleiver is not an old testament beleiver where they needed prophets and seers and teachers to direct them but each is a holy nation, royal priesthood. we still have this offices but its not like how it was in the old when the spirit of God was on a select few. we are all Israels and are all to admonish ourselves. The 12 apostles and Paul were the vectors God used to usher in the NT like He used Mosesd to usher in the Old . That y even the apostles kept telling them that they have the spirit of God and need not that any man teach them as they have already been taught the FULL counsel of God. Paul tho he knew he was writing scripture that will be used because remember they were jews and knew how God has been operating from time past. that He uses men to write His will. Yet Paul never Lorded himself or claimed to be an all in all. Paul planted, Apollos watered and God brought the increase. They saw themselves as tools nothing more nothing less but pointed everyone to Yeshua. You are in a place of darkness and soon your cup will be full. You will fall head first if you dont repent from your wickedness.

As regards the KJV, I said its the authentic transalation as i personally dont read any other because i discovered one translation was pub;lished by the same guys that publiushed hustlers magazine. there is a popular witch phrase, as above, so below, one translation uses that when Yehsua prayed the Lords prayer. but NASB is good and infact the best as i just discovered through our discuss. as you can see i used your bveloved NASB and that was y i looked for another example that wont involve translational issues hence my berechais example which NASB and KJV made the errors of saying Zecherais son of Berechsais.

You are like a drowning man that is just trying to stay afloat. i have said nothing wrong and have backed all with scrpiture. the bile is not for anyone personal interpretation and you must compare spiritual with spiritual ie the bible always explains itself. Its because christains dont study to know who they are so when they encounter evil and wicked men like yourself who are wolves in sheep clothing, they can quickly recognize. for the devil is the Father of Lies and his children cant help themselves but lie and pervert scripture like he did to Adam and Eve in the garden where he twisted the words of God and got them to sin.

Even ____ that is an athesist can quickly read that heb8 and understand that God meant the new covenant not the millenium church but i know you will argue this and not accept because if you do it shows your whole foundation is faulty and you really dont know God nor Yeshua His blessed son. for if you cant understand the simplest things about Yeshua and His word how can you eat the very meat of scripture 

Response #53:
I did say that you would never admit to any errors. I also told you that my response to your post was not for your benefit.

There is much to be said about Hebrews 8, but I will say just a few things:

1. You lied about what I said. I did not say that the New Covenant is only for the Millennium. I said that the direct teaching of the Lord will only happen during the Millennium as a fruit of the New Covenant.

2. The New Covenant is the basis for the Millennium. Without the Cross, the Kingdom will never be established. Because the Lord Jesus has come and died on the Cross, He has been crowned King of the Earth. But His Kingdom will only be inaugurated in the Millennium. When it is, God's Promises to Israel, including their regathering from the nations, the enlarging of the territory to reach the full extent that God promised Abraham but which Israel has never occupied, and the raising of the Israelite nation to rulership over the nations of the world, will be fulfilled. It is at that same time that the Lord will be teaching the inhabitants of the Earth, especially Israel, the Truth directly. That is what Hebrews 8 teaches.

3. If your interpretation of Hebrews 8 is correct, how does it not violate Isaiah 2:3; Micah 4:2; Ephesians 4 and the passages in John that I pointed out?

4. If we do not need teachers, why do we have them, since you claim that we do have people who have the gift of teaching?

Now, regarding Old and New Covenants, the only difference between the two really is that one looked forward to the other. The Old Covenant believer was a believer who had confidence that the Lord would send a Savior to die for his sins. The New Covenant believer is a believer who has confidence that the Savior has come and died for his sins. That's it. This difference is quite profound because the Advent of the Christ and His Victorious Return to Heaven resulted in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, so that gifts that had never existed among human beings were given to believers for the first time. This is a big deal, yes, but not in the sense that the New Testament believer is completely different from the Old Covenant believer.

The Old Covenant believer relied on prophets and eventually priests to teach him the Truth. The New Covenant believer relies on the work of the Apostles and prophets to have access to the Truth and on pastor-teachers to teach him the Truth that the Apostles and prophets have written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. There are more gifts in the Church today than before and the Holy Spirit is indwelling believers permanently for the first time, but the New Testament believer is still part of the Church and is called by the Lord to rely on other believers in different ways to grow to spiritual maturity.

The thing that you might not be appreciating is that, as Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31 both teach, the New Covenant in the Blood of Jesus produces something more than just an enlarged Church comprising Gentiles disproportionately, it also produces the Millennium which is the time that both passages call "after those days." The Millennium follows the Church Age. That is the time of the Kingdom. After the days of the Church, the Millennium will come when the Lord will take things to a new level. At that time, every human being still living on earth will be taught the Truth by Him personally. This is a different dispensation than the Church Age. It is not now. Today is the Church Age when we learn the Truth with the help of one another. That is why we are told that the Bride readies or prepares herself (Revelation 19:7, compare Ephesians 4:11-13). That is, we all work together to build each other up to full spiritual maturity in preparation for the return of our Bridegroom.

Millennial believers are not part of the Church. They are the complement of the Church, that is, an addition to the Church that is the Lord's Bride, so their dispensation is different. They receive the Truth directly from the Lord, but we receive the Truth today through the agency of pastor-teachers who interpret the revelations given to the Apostles and prophets to write down in the Bible.

As for the KJV, I still don't see what you mean. Are you saying that it is only this "authentic translation" that is inspired? Or are you saying that you made a mistake and there is no inspired KJV translation regardless who you believe published it?

I don't see your answers to the accusations I made against you. You did challenge me to produce evidence of the lies that I charge you with, and I provided a sampling of them. What you have done now is to claim that you are innocent, without providing any proof at all of this innocence.

Nonetheless, I don't quite care. I never expected you either to own up to your errors or to provide proof that you did not lie. I only provided the evidence so that it is clear that you and I are not at all alike and that I am not the liar here. As I said, I own up to my own errors and accept correction where necessary, but then you're not like me.

At this point, I am done with our conversation. You may have an answer, but I think that I will leave things at this point. There is little value that I see in continuing this discussion with you.

Question #54:
(Comments about the election of Matthias and Paul’s membership of the Twelve.)

Response #54:
To Whom It May Concern.

From the passages in Matthew and Revelation that I posted earlier, it is clear that the Apostles of the Lamb can only always be Twelve, since they are actually the Millennial Rulers of the Twelve Tribes of Israel and they are the Twelve Foundations of the New Jerusalem in the Eternal State.

Clearly, Judas is not one of them, since he betrayed the Lord Jesus, and was never really a believer to begin with (John 6:70). He was chosen only to fulfill the Scriptures and make the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus happen.

In other words, whenever the Scriptures refer to the Apostles as a single unit, it does so by calling them "the Apostles" or "the Twelve." This is seen too in Luke and Acts. When Judas fell, this only changed to "the eleven" in Luke and Acts to draw attention to the legitimate members of the unit.

So, when, for example, the lots were cast in Acts 1, we see that Matthias was "voted down with the eleven" (as the translation more correctly) reads, Luke makes the point of saying that they were still eleven in spite of the vote. That is to say that Luke was pointing out that the vote did not make them twelve. He was also pointing out with the "voted down" or "fell upon" (not the best translation there) phrase that this was a condemned vote for the Apostles. That is, the vote was one that joined Matthias with them in condemnation.

In Acts 2, Luke goes on to make the point again that they were still eleven by saying that Peter stood up among "the eleven," rather than "the Twelve" because they were still eleven. He only calls them "the Twelve" again as a college or a unit in the matter of the appointment of the deacons, not because they were complete, but because they were acting just like the Apostles that they were, the Foundations of the Church.

It is true that we will not see it explicitly stated that Matthias was not a legitimate replacement for Judas or that Paul was. But the principles are quite clear:

1. It is the Lord Jesus Who appointed Apostles (John 6:70; Mark 3:14).

2. The Lord Jesus did not appoint Matthias.

3. The Lord Jesus called Paul in the same way that He called the other Apostles.

4. The Principle of the double portion is profoundly accomplished in Paul who worked harder than the other eleven (1 Corinthians 15:10).

The fact that something is not stated explicitly in the Bible does not mean that it is not in the Bible. It does put plenty in the realm of interpretation, and it is true that an interpretation, such as the one I have just made, can be wrong, but the fact that it is an interpretation does not make it false. In fact, apart from some basic truths in the Bible, the vast majority of biblical teachings are only accessible through interpretation. This is why the Lord gave pastor-teachers to the Church. They are the only ones who possess the spiritual ability to see the meaning of the text and make them apparent to anyone who is willing to listen to them. And they can only do so after having attained spiritual maturity themselves and done some work of preparation to teach.

So, although not everyone does agree that this is the case, I am convinced that Paul was the twelfth Apostle selected and appointed by the Lord to replace Judas, not Matthias who was voted into office in the wrong way by the disciples before the Holy Spirit was given to the Church.

As I always say, no one is required to believe or agree with me. This is only to attempt to clarify that this is something that I have studied and explored from all the angles that it has been so far addressed and challenged in this thread, and even beyond the questions and speculations so far advanced. It should be obvious from some things that I have said that this is true.

Question #55:
(Comments about the the Lord’s Handing of the keys of the Kingdom to Peter and about Paul and Matthias)

Response #55:
The Lord Jesus gave not just to Peter but to the whole Church the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Those keys are the Gospel. With the Gospel, captives of Satan are set free to become part of the Kingdom of God's Dear Son. And when the Gospel is rejected, those who rejected are bound over to condemnation.

Barnabas was like many other believers whom the Lord gave as secondary apostles to accompany the Apostles and aid them in their work of establishing churches across the world. Silas was another. Apollos was another. John Mark too was another. There were very many. But the Twelve were special. They were those with ranking authority over all the Church.

My argument is not that Paul was more visible than Matthias. It is that Matthias was selected by men who did not know better at the time. If he was an apostle, then he was certainly the only believer in history who received a spiritual ministry through human election. Every other believer received their spiritual gift and ministry directly from the Lord.

In fact, considering that the Apostles only became Apostles in actuality after the Pentecost, because that was when spiritual gifts were given to the Church, it is incredible that Matthias should have been elected as an Apostle without the spiritual gift to boot.

God is not limited to whatever men do. He has every right to do as He pleases, and when we act foolishly, He is not then bound to honor our foolishness. As the Lord Jesus went on to prove, He could find another perfectly suited to the task, even if that one was not even a believer when the other Apostles were chosen. The Lord does as He pleases. And He did in this case. He chose His Own man at the time that He intended, and a prior election was not binding upon His Own Sovereign Choice.

Question #56:
Note Ihe sliding away from his claim that God chooses between options given to God by apostles!

Response #56:
It doesn't surprise me that you do things like the above. If you can read something clear in the Bible and insist that it means something completely different, it's not surprising that you'll read my post and say the above. Still, your dishonesty still reaches depths that manage to surprise me a little.

What could I mean other than that God is not bound by an election that He didn't sanction, just because the eleven were involved and because they prayed before concluding it? How on Earth can anyone read what I wrote and interpret it in the manner that you just did?

For clarity, for those who can be as confused as you manage somehow to be with extremely simple things, I said that an election by the 120 disciples in Acts 1 is not binding on the Sovereign God Who is free to do as He pleases. And this God did do as He pleased and selected and appointed Paul to be the 12th Apostle in replacement of Judas.

I've acknowledged you, as you seem to have been angling for. I wonder what next you're going to throw up to continue to get responses from me.

Question #57:
What you wrote is very clear for everyone to read Ihe, please. How do apostles give God options to pick from?

Response #57:
I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that the 120 disciples did not give God two options to choose from?

[23]So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. [24]And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen [25]to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."
Acts 1:23-25 NASB

Did the 120 not put forward two men and ask the Lord to show which of them He had chosen to replace Judas? What is that called exactly, if I am wrong in saying that they gave the Lord two options to choose from?

How confused can you get?

Question #58:
Person A:
This is unblibical. Jesus was in body and in Spirit when he appointed the Apostles, while Paul was appointed by the Spirit of Christ.

Sounds like adding to the Bible to me, as you constantly accuse me of doing, but how can an interpretation that is wrong be true Ihe?

Seriously? "The vast majority of biblical teachings are not accessible through the Word of God itself, Ihe, but through what you interpret it to be?

Oh. Only some people can use their and training and preparation to understand enough to interpret Biblical teachings? I agree. It's hard work, afterall. Not for lazy fuqs.

Of course Ihe, you have worked harder than everyone else and we are "not one of you"!

Person B:
I'm happy everyone with the Spirit of God can discern the evil spirit that operates in your life. The same spirit that allows you to distort scrpiture. Everything you quoted about the millennia is a lie and you have no scripture in the NT to back it up. Your lot love to dwell in the OT forgetting that OT was written to a people and was a book of prophesies which have already passed and the remaining prophesies are the destruction of the earth and the establishing of the new Jerusalem e.t.c. ALL those words in theOT were addressed to a people not you or me and the ones that were prophesies for our time like the coming messiah and everlasting judgement were clear. Now you r quoting Micah, oya let's look at it together.

Micah 4:1-4 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken ....

Dont you see Micah helps to explain my points? Its says in the last days the mountain of the Lord will be establish in the Top of the Mountains. what is the mountain of the Lord? This signifies authority, its saying The Lords mountain will be exalted just like we have it in Yeshua who is exalted and sitting above all principalities and power and above all other mountains as Eph 1 tells us., verse 2, and people shall flow into it and MANY NATIONS WILL COME. it means the gentiles will be allowed access to these mountain ......verse 4 and many will say come let us go and seek the Lord for HE will teach us of His ways, verse 5 FOR OUT OF ZION SHALL PROCEED THE LAW, Where or what is Zion? Why is the law from Zion direct and not from pastor teachers? Why is it God that will teach His ways and not your pastor teachers. These was Micah like other OT prophets who God allowed to see the times of the reformation where 5he gentiles will be included and God Himself will Pour out His Spirits. The Isaiah you also quoted is the exact same with Micah. Do you know these prophets wondered what kind of men will beleive in Yahweh during this time?

1 Peter 1:10-11 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The old prophets saw the salvation that Yeshua will bring because they also had the same Spirit.

We know that everywhere in scrpiture when it talks of the last days its talking about the days after the messiah has been sacrificed as an offering and resurrected. We are In the last days.

Let me tell you all the prophesies in a nutshell. A nation Israel will be born, they will rebel and God will send them destructions (which were d details of literally all the prophets from Jeremiah till Malachi? Which led to the temples destruction and the rebuilding was prophesied that Cyrus will help consumamate. Then that The temple will be destroyed again because of sin and that the messiah will come, and that he will ride a colt and be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver and killed and resurrect, then the world will be destroyed when the Messiah returns with His saints to establish the new heaven and earth after judging sinners, satan and his Angel's and the fallen angels.

My friend all the prophesies have been fulfilled till the coming of the messiah. What we r waiting for now is the destruction of the earth as that is the last days were the wicked will become more wicked.

You have complicated the simplicity of the gospel with your heresies. And you r rong, Yeshua is not King on earth as there is a god of this world already and they cant be two Kings in a Kingdom. Yeshua is in heaven and until the earth is first destroyed and sinners removed. Can you honestly say this earth is for Yeshua? Men rule this earth in collaboration with principalities.

All the apostles preached that the earth will be destroyed and judgement will come. Yeshua prophesied the last days to be rough in mt25 and not pleasant. Earthquakes, killings etc and then the end will come.

I'm not addressing this to you because you portion is hell already. It's for posterity and the one folk who will find this words. PLEASE READ YOUR BIBLE YOURSELF WITH THE HELP OF THE LORD. THESE R D LAST DAYS AND THE DEVIL IS LOOKING FOR WHO TO DEVOUR. ITS ALL ABOUT HEAVEN AND HELL NOT RICHES. THESE WORLD IS PASSING AWAY AS WE R IN THE LAST DAYS. READ THE NT AND YOU WILL REALISE THAT MANY FALSE PROPHETS ARE GONE OUT ALREADY SELLING PEACE PEACE WHEN TRULY THERE IS WAR WAR.

DO NOT BE DECEIVED WE ARE IN THE DEVILS KINGDOM. THE EARTH AS WE HAVE IT HAS BEEN GIVEN TO HIM. HE IS THE PRINCE/god of this world. YOU CANNOT TAKE ANY MOUNTAIN AS FAKE PASTOR SAID. ALL THE MOUNTAINS OF THE EARTH ARE CARNAL . The kingdom of God and His son is not a carnal kindgom and not of this world. The earth will be destroyed and the messiah shall appear. It will be like the days of Noah. Pls read your bible and see this things for yourself so you can prove what is that good, acceptable and perfect will of God.

A word is enough for the wise

Person C:
See how you contradict yourself with the bolded in red.

My questions still stands.

1) Why didn't God outrightly reject both choices the Apostles presented to Him? Have you suddenly forgotten the case of Samuel trying to anoint a replacement for King Saul for example? Or did God's ways suddenly change?

2) Why didn't the Holy Spirit outrightly reject the apostleship of Matthias?

3) Where in the scriptures can we see Jesus appointing Paul for the purpose of replacing Judas? Oh wait, this now subjected to "the realm of interpretation"...

4) If your argument is about Jesus calling Paul to service like He did to the other Apostles, what of the other 70 (or 72 as the case might be) Jesus called and commissioned directly?

Response #58:
So, I am being corrected and told off by a self-proclaimed unbeliever who somehow also claims to serve Jesus Christ, a syncretist who mixes Christianity with Eastern religions, and an established liar. All three are proven liars. But I'm the one who needs to be corrected about what the Bible teaches and warned for presenting myself as a pastor-teacher, although I believe in Jesus Christ as revealed in the Bible, refuse to accept any foreign elements and intrusions into the Bible, and own up to my errors and mistakes in the rare instances that I make them.

Well, the Scriptures are clear that Satan masquerades as an angel of light and his ministers do the same. I don't see more that I can do either to correct you three and others like you or to warn anyone who chances upon our conversations to be wary of you.

So, as I said before, I'm moving on from these discussions. I will not attempt to correct the misrepresentations of my own comments by you three: my posts should be enough to prove to anyone who cares that you are lying about what I have said wherever you are doing so.

Question #59:
Person A:
(Posts meme of Numbers 22:32-33)

Person B:
Is this the scriptural evidence pointing to where Jesus appointed Paul to replace Judas?

Is this the scriptural evidence pointing to where the Holy Spirit rejected Matthias’ apostleship?

I get it, you have no answer to the queries being raised here, and would rather rely on your conjectures and interpretation of the scriptures.

I take this as your exit strategy in the absence of scriptural evidence to support your claims.

You’re a joke. The bolded in your quote reeks of “humility”. It’s very essential in your walk with God. Ride on Ihedinobi3, the all knowing one.

Person C:
You neither were able to use scripture to drive home your points and infact all the scripture you quoted have rather verified mine .

You are stiff necked and a reprobate. Put the bible on display let's discuss not some demonic revelations you got from your hallucinations.

You quoted Micah and it buttresses my points, we all read hebrew 8 and it buttresses my points. Are you so dull of understanding? R u that far gone into sorcery and fooliness? Cant you simply read the bible and understand? Must you complicate the simplicity of the gospels?

Well, I cant help brother, your lot has been predestined already. False prophets whose God is their belly. You r reserved like the fallen Angel's for eternal condemnation if you dont repent and make scripture your lifeline not your private interpretations but what scripture actually insinuates.

Your blood, your life 

Response #59:
**No response**