On The False Doctrine of Eternal Annihilation

Question #1:
Does Man and Satan have Immortality,?
Millions of dollars are spent annually by government and private firms on research inorder to discover the key to Immortality but the sad truth is that man cannot have Immortality by his our effort.
Man's nature:
People have been erroneously taught that man is made of an immortal soul and spirit that cannot die this is wrong and unbiblical.
In genesis God gave us a blue print on how man was made.
Man was made from the dust and God gave him life (breath/spirit) by breathing into man's nostrils and man became a living soul genesis 2:7.
Satan has promoted the concept or lie that a man does not really die after death but that his soul and spirit lives on this was the very same lie he sold to Eve when he urged her to eat the forbidden fruit.

A major reason for this misunderstanding is that people fail to understand what the Bible refers to as a soul or a spirit.

In the Bible a spirit can refer or mean 3 different things.

*A living being:God is a spirit, Angels,Demons & Satan are spirits Heb12:9,Heb 1:7, Leviticus 20:27

*It can also be used to refer to the breath of life in Man or animals
James 2:26,Job 33:4,Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

*It can also be used to refer to a persons will, capacity, countenance,reasoning, mind,intellect,zeal,thoughts,visions or dreams.Gen6:3,Genesis 41:8, Exdous 31:3,Exdous 35:31.
Isaiah 40:13 ...'Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, or
being his counsellor has taught him?'
Romans 11:34 ...'For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or
who has been his counsellor?'

Also the Soul in the Bible refers to 3 different things.
* A living person or animal.genesis12:15,genesis 46:18
* Life force or life of a person
Genesis 35:18
* Faculty or reasoning or intellect of a person,mind,thoughts.
songs of Solomon 1:7,3:1, Isaiah 26:8&9.

As we can see no where in the Bible does the spirit or soul of a person mean something that has immortality or that can exist on its own.the Bible also inform us that the Dead know nothing neither there soul or spirit is concoius of anything as erroneously taught to people.
Man is nothing more but clay or dust powered by the spirit of God
Life is what makes us a Soul.

When God created man God made provision for man to have the key to eternal life by giving man access to the tree of life in the garden, genesis 2:9 when man fell God knew that man will perpetuate sin if he lived for ever by having access to the tree of life genesis 3:22-24
So God drove man out of the garden of Eden and placed a flaming sword and Cheribuim to guard the way to the tree of life. In the Bible man is called Mortal man, Job4:17 meaning subject to death.

Satan and God's creations.
God did not create any living being with the capacity to live eternally on it's own the, the Bible declears that only God has Immortality, this means that Satan and man don't have Immortality considering the fact that both man and Satan as well as the Angels and Demons are all created beings who have a beginning and also an end. God alone has Immortality he was neither created or has a beginning or end.1timothy6:16

In Ezekiel 28:14 God passed sentence of death on Satan this confirms the fact that Satan does not have immortality.

God's redemption plan.
When Adam (Man) fell and lost his place in the garden of Eden and hence access to the tree of life death reigned from Adam to the entire human race.Roms5:14 it was God's desire to bring man back to the garden and the only way was for God to send his son(Jesus Christ) to die and shed his blood as an atonement for Man's sin.mark10:45, through the death and ressurection of Jesus man has been given back access to the tree of life Rev2:17, this gift of immortality will be given at the 2nd coming of Jesus precisely at the resurrection of the just.Rev 22:2 & 14,John6:54,John 12:25,John 10:28, John 11:25

In Conclusion.
Neither man or Satan has immortality, only God has Life inherently in him(immortality)
Man's hope of living eternally has been established through the scarifice made by Jesus only Jesus can give man immortality any other means will lead to failure and death. John 6:51,John 6:40

Thank you

Please note this Bible verses on the Soul.
THE SOUL THAT SINS SHALL DIE
Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of
the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the
soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezek 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn
ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Psa 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
Psa 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;
Psa 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that
I may walk before God in the light of the living?
Psa 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?

Response #1:
Hello.

Why then does the Bible say the following?

14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
(KJV) Ecclesiastes 3:14

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(KJV) Revelation 14:9-11

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever...14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV) Revelation 20:10, 14-15

Question #2:
When we allow the Bible to interpret itself the truth and the word of God becomes clearer.
I would like you to explain in clearer terms what you are insinuating.

Response #2:
I certainly agree that when the Bible interprets itself, the Truth becomes clear.

As for what I'm insinuating, it is that you are ignoring those passages in your claims. If you're not, how do you explain them?

Question #3:
I still don't understand you, are you saying that the Soul cannot die or what?

Response #3:
Let me spell it out again then:

I don't see how what you said agrees with those passages. Can you explain how it does?

Question #4:
Ok.

Thats why I said we must allow the Bible to explain itself.

The same Bible you quoted those Bible verses from also tells us that the Soul can die.
THE SOUL THAT SINS SHALL DIE
Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of
the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the
soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

It also tells us that the wicked will perish and be destroyed.

Psalm 37:38
But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of
the wicked shall be cut off.

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD
shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke
shall they consume away.

We are also told that they shall be turned to ashes like Sodom and Gomorrah.

Malachi 4:3
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes
under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this,
saith the LORD of hosts.

2 Peter 2:6
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes
condemned them with an overthrow, making them an
ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

We are also told that the Devil/Satan who is the originator of Sin will be turned to ashes.

Ezekiel 28:18
By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19
All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”

We are also told that those who do not receive Jesus will face the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first
resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but
they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with
Him for a thousand years.

Finally note that the wages of sin is death.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The word forever in the Bible does not always mean something without end.

For example the word "forever" has been used 56times in the Bible to refer to things that has already ended.

E.g God said of the Temple that Solomon built, “‘For now I
have chosen and sanctified this house, that My name may be
there forever; and My eyes and My heart will be there
perpetually'” (2 Chronicles 7:16). However, because of the sins
of Israel and then Judah, God caused this Temple to be
destroyed! (Compare 2 Chronicles 36:15-21).
When studying the concept of “forever” in context, we see a
variety of intended meanings. The word can express a never-
ending condition or situation, but it can also refer to a certain
limited period of time, based on the life of the parties involved
and also dependent on relevant conditions.

The mother of Samuel is quoted: “But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband, ‘Not until the child is weaned; then I will take him, that he may appear before the LORD and REMAIN THERE FOREVER'” (1 Samuel 1:22). But we know that Samuel died– that he is not NOW still before the LORD! (Compare 1 Samuel
25:1).

in Exodus 21:6: “‘then his
master shall bring him to the judges, He shall also bring him
to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his
ear with an awl, AND HE SHALL SERVE HIM
FOREVER'” (Compare Deuteronomy 15:17).
Does this verse mean that a servant in this circumstance will
continue serving the same master for all of eternity? Obviously
not, as both the servant and his master eventually died! The
word translated here in Exodus 21 as “forever” is the same
Hebrew word “owlam” that we have already seen used in
earlier examples about living forever.

Response #4:
Alright. I have further questions.

1. What is a soul? I have in mind Genesis 2:7 in asking you that. If Genesis 2:7 is true, and if Ecclesiastes 12:7 is too, then why do you hold that the death of the soul means that the spirit ceases to exist? If it ceases to exist, then how does it return to God Who is said to have given it? Also, why does Hebrews 12:23 say that we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem where there are spirits of righteous men who have been made perfect if the spirit ceases to exist after death? Why also do we see the "souls" of the martyrs at the foot of the altar in Heaven in Revelation 6:9 if the death of souls means that the person ceases to exist?

2. How do we know which "forever" is meant when we read "forever" in the Bible? For example, when Hebrews 13:8 says that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, how can we tell which forever is meant there?

3. When Revelation 14:10-11 says that those who take the mark of the beast will be tormented in fire and brimstone, such that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, how do we know which "forever" is meant here? Also, when is this torment happening? Is it while they are still alive on Earth? How can you tell?

Question #5:
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When someone dies the body turns to dust while the spirit which is the breathe from a God returns to him is a simple as that we don't need to over emphasis it or speculate on how it happens.
What we know is that God can take and would take back the breathe or his spirit when a person dies.
The spirit does not exist independently it comes from God as a thoughtless force which powers the body to become a soul.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

First you need to understand that the word Spirit when used in the Bible can mean 3different things *Which are a living being like God,Angels,
*It can mean the mind,will,thought, zeal, imagination.
*It can also mean life or breathe.
depending on the context in which it is applied.

In Hebrews 12:23 considering the context in which it is applied we can confidently say that the Bible verse is referring to the mind and thoughts of the just men.
The Bible verse did not say that this men or their spirit were in Heaven but that they had a their names or testimony written in Heaven.

Here is another clue.

Hebrews 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Response #5:
I agree that we don't need to speculate on what happens after we die, but that is what you seem to me to have gone ahead and done.

When you say, "The spirit does not exist independently it comes from God as a thoughtless force which powers the body to become a soul," I don't see where or how this is said in the Bible at all. It sounds just like speculation, especially of the unwarranted sort, to me, since God being uncreated and not at all material does not breathe, so that when we are told of "the breath of God," the Scriptures obviously do not mean "air" or anything of the sort. So, how do you arrive at the above?

When you say that the word spirit can mean "the mind,will,thought, zeal, imagination," where is this in the Bible? How does this agree with the following?

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 KJV

Should we assume that it means that the mind, will, thought, zeal, and imagination of animals go downward to the earth? Is that what Solomon meant here?

About Hebrews 12:23, when you say, "the Bible verse did not say that this men or their spirit were in Heaven but that they had a their names or testimony written in Heaven," this is what the passage actually says:

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Hebrews 12:22-24 KJV

That is, it is the whole Church that is written in heaven, not just the spirits of these just men. But the Scripture actually says that we have come to the spirits of these men made perfect. If the idea had been to tell us that we have come to their "mind and thoughts" or to their "names and testimonies" written in Heaven, then it was not necessary to say "and to the spirits of just men made perfect" after saying "to the general assembly, the Church of the firstborn which is written in Heaven," since they are part of the general assembly and the Church of the first born.

I'm afraid I don't understand your reference to Hebrews 13:21.

Question #6:
What Does "For Ever and Ever" Mean?
In general, the Greek word aion is translated: forever. However
its real meaning is "Age ". There are actually two meanings for
the word " Age"
1. "Age " can mean a human lifetime, or life itself. So it
can be a limited time, as long as someone is going to
live.
2. "Age " can also mean an unbroken age, perpetuity of
time, or an eternity. So it can mean forever and ever.
Basically, if the subject is God or Jesus, since they exist in
eternity, the meaning of "Age " would be an unbroken age, or
an eternity. On the other hand, if the subject is referring to
finite human beings, then the meaning of "Age " would be
limited to the life-span of a human lifetime.
In the Greek New Testament, "Age " almost always refers to the
subject of Jesus or God. Since He lives forever, the time that
is meant is forever or for an eternity. However in the Old
Testament, we have many examples where forever only
means the life-time of an individual. The Hebrew language can
have the same two meanings. Here is an example, in Old
Testament Hebrew, where forever only means how long a
person will live.

Most of the book of Revelation where in written in symbolic pattern the cannot be taken or understood literally.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

This verse expresses God's just nature , the purpose of this verse is to convey the message that God still remembers and would reward those who died for his name.
The Alter symbolizes their faith and salvation.

If we take this verse literally it will contracdicts many other Bible verses and the word of God. because God's word says that the dead know nothing, it also says that the dead cannot praise God.
If this saints were alive why can't they praise God?

Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

The Bible calls death a sleep, just like one doesn't know anything happening around him when sleeping so also one who is dead.

The bible says that Stephen the first martyrs fell asleep (died).

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Luke 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Response #6:
Regarding this, "Here is an example, in Old
Testament Hebrew, where forever only means how long a person will live," it appears that you forgot to include the example you meant to give.

Regarding this, "Most of the book of Revelation where in written in symbolic pattern the cannot be taken or understood literally," I don't see where the Bible says this at all. How did you come to this conclusion? I do know that there are symbols and metaphors in Revelation, but they are all obvious, and they are certainly not "most of the book of Revelation." Take the Altar in question, for example. The Lord said to Moses, "see to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown to you on the Mountain," (Exodus 25:40), and Paul says that there is a true tabernacle pitched by the Lord, not man, of which the tabernacle made by Moses was only a shadow (Hebrews 8:2,5). That is to say that the Altar is absolutely real and material. It was not a mere symbol at all. So, I don't see how you are correct in this.

As for "forever and ever," I already agree that it can mean different things, so that is not the question I am asking. I am asking you how we can tell which is meant. Your answer is that if a human being is in view then it is only until the end of their lives, but if that is the case, why would the Lord say the following?

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:41-46 NASB

If this is happening after these people have died, then "forever" doesn't mean "until the end of their lives. Also, if the punishment is eternal, then it coincides very well with the "forever" torment of Revelation.

As for sleep, this is something else that Paul said:

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better...
Philippians 1:23 KJV

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 5:1 (KJV)

How is one with Christ when they are extinct? Considering also that the Greek in verse 3 actually reads, "and [even] if we do put off this present one, at any rate we (i.e. our spirits) will not be found naked," (courtesy of https://ichthys.com), how do people who are asleep still get a covering for their spirits with which to be with the Lord while they wait for Resurrection?

As for the dead being incapable of doing anything, I think it is obvious that those who have died believing are no longer facing the troubles of this life, so they can no longer express the "praise" that we do for deliverance out of our many troubles. Theirs is a state of rest now. Do you disagree with this?

How about this example too?

7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. 8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. 9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
1 Samuel 28:7 (KJV)

If Samuel was extinct or unconscious, how was he able to come and speak to Saul? And what did he mean by Saul and his sons would be with him by the next day? How would they be with him if they were going to be extinct?

Finally, sleep is not the same as extinction. It can be rest and/or unconsciousness, depending on how it is used, but it never means extinction. Given everything the Bible says about death, sleep makes sense for describing dead believers because they are said to be in or at rest from the wars of this life. We are, after all, fighting the fight of faith, as Paul put it. Do you disagree?

Question #7:

The torment will happen at the end of the World when Christ returns to judge man.
It will happen here on Earth, the Hellfire talked about in the Bible is the Earth envloped in fire.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The torment will happen at the end of the World when Christ returns to judge man.
It will happen here on Earth, the Hellfire talked about in the Bible is the Earth envloped in fire.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Response #7:
If, as you say, the torment will happen at the end of the world, then "forever" in that case cannot mean "until the end of their lives," since they are already dead. Also, the end of the world is also the end of time. So, this judgment is happening at the end of time, so "forever" cannot mean "until the end of time," it means something outside of time in this case. It would seem then that you are quite wrong.

As for where this is happening, this is what the Bible actually says,

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:11 (KJV)

That is, just as Peter said (2 Peter 3:10-12), this present creation is removed from existence with fire. It doesn't stick around burning forever. Even if it did though (and, as I just showed you, it doesn't), this is not happening while these people live here on Earth. It is happening after they have died and been resurrected by the Lord for judgment. What the Scriptures actually say is that these people are consigned to the Lake of Fire where the Antichrist and his prophet already were from a thousand years before (Revelation 20:10; 19:20), which also shows not only that the Lake is not on Earth, since the Lord rules the Earth for a thousand years after throwing the Antichrist and his prophet into it, but also that "forever" lasted even past the Glorious Millennium for the Antichrist and his prophet. So, I don't see what you are saying in the Bible at all.

Question #8:
The Smoke of Their Torment
1. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and
ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship
the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark
of his name. Revelation 14:11
Here is another interesting note: "The smoke of their torment
ascendeth up for ever and ever", from Revelation 14:11
obviously comes from Isaiah 34:10. It is the description of the
destruction and desolation of Edom. Most of the book of
Revelation actually is connected with the Old Testament.
1. It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke
shall ascend forever . From generation to generation it
shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever
and ever . Isaiah 34:10
It is clear that Isaiah was not saying that the smoke would be
ascending forever since he also says that the land would then
become a waste for generations. He says that it would be a
place that only wild animals would inhabit. The animals
would take over the land.
1. But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it,
Also the owl and the raven shall dwell in it. And He shall
stretch out over it The line of confusion and the stones of
emptiness.
2. They shall call its nobles to the kingdom, But none
shall be there, and all its princes shall be nothing.
3. And thorns shall come up in its palaces, Nettles and
brambles in its fortresses; It shall be a habitation of
jackals, A courtyard for ostriches.
4. The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with
the jackals, And the wild goat shall bleat to its
companion; Also the night creature shall rest there, And
find for herself a place of rest.
5. There the arrow snake shall make her nest and lay
eggs And hatch, and gather them under her shadow;
There also shall the hawks be gathered, Every one with
her mate. Isaiah 34:11-15
The description of the smoke, is only a temporary action.
Once the smoke is gone, then the animals take over. So, this
text really speaks of complete destruction, not that the smoke
would be forever rising, but that it would become a wasteland.
The fire would do its job and then nothing would be left. If the
area would be forever burning and smokey, the wild animals
would never inhabit the area. Animals run away from smoke
and fire.
The destruction of Edom matches the destruction of the
wicked at the end. They will also vanish away once the fire
does its job of destroying the wicked.
20. But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of
the LORD , Like the splendor of the meadows, shall
vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away . Psalm 37:
20.
So in this case the word " forever", only means for as long as
Edom burned. And in Revelation, "forever" only means for as
long as the wicked burn. The fire will not be quenched until
everything is burned up.

Response #8:
So, the Lake of Fire is really Edom, not the planet Earth as you first surmised? Do I understand you correctly?

If you argue that it is not Edom, but the planet Earth, not only do we not have any biblical proof that this is so, but we also know that the Earth and the heavens are burned up before the Judgment of the Great White Throne, so how could that be where the unrighteous are burnt until they are consumed?

As I said above, it is hard to see how you are right in the face of Revelation 19:20 and 20:10. It seems quite obvious to me that the burning lasts much longer, and occurs after life. In fact, going by Matthew 25, the punishment is eternal, without any termination at all. It seems clear to me that it takes interpretive gymnastics and some rejection of clear statements in the Bible to hold the position that you do.

Question #9:
Your argument is making me sick, their is no direction or understanding to it.

I never said the lake of fire is Edom.
The purpose of mentioning Edom was to demonstrate the fact that the word forever although used in the bible in describing the destruction of Edom, it's says the smoke of Edom will ascend forever. but we know that Edom is not currently burning neither is there smoke ascending forever

This proves that the word forever does not necessarily mean something without end.

Hellfire is this Earth turned into Fire ball.

Zephaniah 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver
them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the
earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For
He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one,
Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Zephaniah 3:8
"Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD, "For the
day when I rise up as a witness Indeed, My decision is
to gather nations, To assemble kingdoms, To pour out
on them My indignation, All My burning anger; For all
the earth will be devoured By the fire of My zeal.

2 Peter 3:11
Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way,
what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct
and godliness,

2 Peter 3:12
looking for and hastening the coming of the day of
God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed
by burning, and the elements will melt with intense
heat!
Vers

2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by
the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of
judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in
the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth
also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Response #9:
I'm sure my intent was not to make you sick, although your teaching was apt to do worse to believers.

Forgive my misunderstanding. It just seemed to me that you were saying that the Lake of Fire was Edom since you said, "Here is another interesting note: "The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever", from Revelation 14:11 obviously comes from Isaiah 34:10. It is the description of the destruction and desolation of Edom. Most of the book of Revelation actually is connected with the Old Testament." If Revelation 14:11 comes from Isaiah 34:10, then it must be referring to Edom. That was how I understood what you said. If this was not what you meant, perhaps you could have made it clearer.

If you only meant that Revelation 14:11 should be taken the same way as Isaiah 34:10, the question is why. Are they the same? In my thinking, they're not. What is happening in Isaiah 34 is actually Armageddon. It's part of a complex of chapters describing how God will deliver Israel from the world's armies gathered against it by the Antichrist to destroy it. The deliverance will occur at the Second Advent when the Lord Jesus will destroy those armies and reclaim the Earth from Satan. You can compare Zechariah 14 and Revelation 19 for proof.

The use of "forever" in that passage then refers to the absolute perfection of the judgment so that it will not cease until the Lord renews the Earth for His Millennial Reign.

In my thinking, you do realize that Revelation 14 is not at all speaking about Isaiah 34. Both are different things. Revelation 14 speaks of a judgment that occurs forever and ever from a heavenly perspective, which is where the Lamb and His Angels are, not from an earthly perspective as in Isaiah 34, which is where the nations invading Israel are.

I have also explained in that second installment of my answer that you responded to and in the first one too that the Earth cannot be the Lake of Fire since the Lord Jesus rules it for a thousand years after casting the Antichrist and his prophet into the Lake of Fire. As I also said, we also don't have any biblical proof that the Earth becomes the Lake of Fire even afterwards since we are told that it is removed from existence with fire by the Lord Jesus before the Judgment of the Great White Throne. If it was, then it cannot be the Lake of Fire into which the unrighteous are cast together with Satan and his fellow rebel angels.

If I am wrong about this, you have not quite demonstrated it. Your use of those passages you quoted, just like your use of Isaiah 34, ignores what the Bible says as a whole. If Zephaniah 1:18 means that the Lord will turn the Earth into the Lake of Fire, then which other Lake of Fire were the Antichrist and his prophet cast into at Armageddon in Revelation 19? If Zephaniah 3:8 means that the Lord consumed the entire Earth with fire at His Second Advent, which is what He is speaking of here, then where does the Millennial Reign of Revelation 20 occur? If 2 Peter 3:7-12 says that the Earth will be turned into the Lake of Fire, then why are we told in Revelation 20 and 21 and elsewhere in the Bible that this universe will pass away and be replaced with a new one?

It seems to me that you are misapplying Scriptures, forcing them to contradict each other in your bid to teach a lie. I don't know if it is something that you are doing on purpose, or if you are only in error unwittingly. My answers have been to show you that the Bible does not agree with your position. I understand if you disagree. After all, it is the nature of this forum that everyone claims to be a teacher here even if they are not even believers in Jesus Christ. But, for what good it might do you and others who might read these discussions, I am making my responses here for correction.

The Bible is unequivocal that what God has done is forever, as in the first passages I shared with you in my first post. That is, everything He created is built to last eternally. Not one thing can be removed from existence, nor can anything at all be added to Creation. This is clearly what Ecclesiastes 3:14 teaches. It is not at all biblical to claim that the souls (that is, the spirits that exist in corporeal bodies: both man and beast, as Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 teaches) will ever go out of existence. They will not. Their bodies will return to the dust (except for believers who live to see the Lord Jesus return, whose bodies will only be changed into eternal ones), but their spirits will receive a new "sheath" or "clothing," that is, an interim body (2 Corinthians 5:3 in Greek) to exist in either in Sheol or in Heaven (Ecclesiastes 3:18-21; Luke 16:22-23; Ephesians 4:8; and a host of other Scriptures) until the Resurrection at which time they will receive eternal bodies that are suited to their eternal status either as redeemed or as condemned (Daniel 12:2; John 5:28-29; Revelation 20:11-15).

When the Scriptures talk about the death of the sinning soul, it speaks of the Second Death, yes, but the Second Death does not contradict Ecclesiastes 3:14. Those who sin will be punished eternally by being excluded from God's Glorious Presence for all eternity and put in a place of suffering for all their mad rebellion. As the Lord Jesus says concerning them, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:40-42), that is, there shall be regret for their terrible choice, an impossibility if they are either unconscious or non-existent. The Second Death is called death because it is an exclusion from everything that is good from God. A state of existence where you have no access to any of God's gifts or to God Himself, that is already death, but if we add to such a place all that is God's curse and His Wrath, then we have an even worse state of existence than the human mind can begin to comprehend. It is better to not exist at all than to suffer such a punishment. That is why it is called a Death, not because there is any kind of cessation of existence.

To be clear, it is no kind of punishment at all for the wicked to simply go out of existence after spending their time here on Earth rebelling against the Lord and doing so much harm to His People. That they simply cease to exist is practically congratulations for being so smart. It is no justice at all. Consider that in Isaiah 66:24 (compare also Psalm 91:8 ), the Lord promises the righteous that they will be able to see His Justice upon those who have done so much wickedness to them. This is a comfort from the Lord. It has been said that Isaiah 66:24 proves that there is no eternal suffering for the wicked, but obviously that is not true. Why would the "dead bodies" of sinners last eternally, if the fires consumed them and wild animals can return after the smoke is gone, as it seems to me that you said? In fact, "corpses" or "dead bodies" is probably the best way to describe the state of existence of these rebels, since they lack anything that can rightly be called life. They have no light, no water, no food, no companionship, no joy, no peace, or anything good at all. Instead, they have the torment of the fire, the palpable darkness, the knowledge that they could never have defeated the Lord in their rebellion, the knowledge that they can never get out of that dreadful place, the consciousness that they are alone and without help or friends of any sort, the knowledge of all the good that they rejected in rejecting the Lord's Mercy, and so much more than all that. They are, for all intents and purposes, truly Dead, although they are very truly conscious and able to experience that Death consciously. The righteous will see this and rejoice in the Justice of their God.

This is what the Bible teaches. You may be unable to bear it, but it is the Truth nonetheless.

Question #10:
Please stop writting long meaningless articles be precise and straight to the point.

Response #10:
No response

Question #11:
Ihedinobi3

Please explain to me why Sodom and Gomorrah is still not burning since they were burnt with eternal fire.

Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Please explain to me what this Bible verse means. the wages of sin death.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. 1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Response #11:
I'm afraid I will not honor your requests above, since I made a comprehensive argument that you have to demonstrate an understanding of first in order to proffer any challenges that are clearly responding to it. That is to say that if I answer the above, I will only trigger a never-ending chain of excuses from you for refusing to accept what I say, and that is not even necessary, since I don't require you to accept anything I say. I have only argued that your teaching here is false. If you think that the above Scriptures disagree with my argument, feel free to demonstrate how they do. Then it will be up to me to show you how they don't, if I can.

Question #12:
Ihedinobi3

Where in the Bible is it written that Samuel appeared to Saul?

1 Samuel 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

Response #12:
Your quote already answered you, but I will offer you a more complete quote in response:

11Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” 12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul.” 13The king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a divine being coming up out of the earth.” 14He said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.

15Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” And Saul answered, “I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do.” 16 Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has departed from you and has become your adversary? 17“The LORD has done accordingly as He spoke through me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, to David. 18“As you did not obey the LORD and did not execute His fierce wrath on Amalek, so the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19“Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”

20Then Saul immediately fell full length upon the ground and was very afraid because of the words of Samuel; also there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day and all night.
1 Samuel 28:11-20 NASB

That is, it is the Bible itself that says that this was Samuel who came to speak with Saul. It wasn't the witch that identified the el'ohim as Samuel, nor was it Saul who did. The Bible records only that Saul recognized the person described to him as Samuel and that the witch was frightened by what she saw, no doubt because she did not expect him. In other words, God overrode the medium's demonic con to bring Samuel to speak to Saul one last time.

Question #13:
Ihedinobi3

2 Corinthians 2:13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.

Genesis 41:8 And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh.

Isaiah 40:13 ...'Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, or
being his counsellor has taught him?'
Romans 11:34 ...'For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or
who has been his counsellor?'

The Spirit can also mean capacity,zeal or will, thoughts, mind.

Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 31:4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,

1 Chronicles 5:26 And the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul king of Assyria, and the spirit of Tilgathpilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away, even the Reubenites, and the Gadites, and the half tribe of Manasseh, and brought them unto Halah, and Habor, and Hara, and to the river Gozan, unto this day.

Numbers 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

Response #13:
I'm afraid I don't see how these passages mean anything like what you interpret them to mean. Our spirits are the real "us," so our knowledge, our thoughts, our zeal, our imagination, our understanding, our emotions etc are actually functions of our spirits. Our bodies are merely vehicles for expressing these things. The idea that our spirits are merely our thoughts, emotions etc is what is in question. That is exactly the same as saying that our bodies are our hungers and appetites (whether for food or water, or for exercise, or for physical intimacy). That is obviously not true. Our bodies have these functions; they get hungry and thirsty and itch for movement and more, but our hunger and thirst etc are not our bodies.

Question #14:
Ihedinobi3

◄ Revelation 20:4
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were
given authority to judge. I also saw the people who had
been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus
and because of God's word, who had not worshiped the
beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark
on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and
reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment
was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those
who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for
the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his
image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or
on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for
a thousand years.

2nd Example.

Genesis 46:18 These are the sons of Zilpah, whom Laban gave to Leah his daughter, and these she bare unto Jacob, even sixteen souls.
Genesis 46:22 These are the sons of Rachel, which were born to Jacob: all the souls were fourteen.
Genesis 46:26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were threescore and six;

Response #14:
I'm not sure what you mean to say with the above, but I do know these passages, in case you are posting them on the assumption that I don't.

Question #15:
Ihedinobi3.

I never said the word forever depends on whether it is a human being or not.

What u said is that the word forever can not be taken literally all less permitted by certain conditions.

Response #15:
I'm not sure what you are referring to here.

Question #16:
Ihedinobi3.

Bible verses on the Soul.
THE SOUL THAT SINS SHALL DIE
Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of
the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the
soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezek 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord
GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked;
but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn
ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die,
O house of Israel?
Psa 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat
and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall
bow before him: and none can keep alive his own
soul.
Psa 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon
them that fear him, upon them that hope in his
mercy;
Psa 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, and to
keep them alive in famine.
Psa 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from
death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that
I may walk before God in the light of the living?
Psa 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not
see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand
of the grave?

Response #16:
I don't understand what you mean to say to me with the above. I'm aware of these verses already and took them into account in my responses to you.

Question #17:
Ihedinobi3

The torment will happen at the end of the World when Christ returns to judge man.
It will happen here on Earth, the Hellfire talked about in the Bible is the Earth envloped in fire.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Response #17:
I've already answered this in my responses to you.

Question #18:
Ihedinobi3
Its obvious you don't know how to read and understand the
Bible here are some tips.
No 1 rule is that you must consider every Bible verse
concerning a subject before making conclusion.
Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye
may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet
they would not hear. 28:13 But the word of the LORD was
unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line
upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that
they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared,
and taken.
No 2 rule.
All part of the scripture were given by God for our learning.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness:
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime
were written for our learning, that we through patience and
comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
No 3.
You cannot interpret the scripture to suit your preconcieved
ideas or your individual beliefs.
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the
scripture is of any private interpretation. 2 Peter 3:16 As also
in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which
are some things hard to be understood, which they that are
unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other
scriptures, unto their own destruction.
No 4: The scripture cannot be broken, it means every part of
the scripture must agree with each other.
John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of
God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
No 5. Rule.
You must ask God for understanding.
Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they
might understand the scriptures,
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have
eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
No 6. Rule.
You must prove all things using the scripture.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye
transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove
what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Ephesians 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is
good.

Response #18:
Although you've taken at least 2 Peter 1:20 to mean here something different from what it does, I agree completely with your comments here. I urge you to put them into practice in your own teaching. If you do, you will not produce the errors that you have produced here and in at least one other thread of yours that I have seen.

Question #19:
Ihedinobi3
Show me where it is written that the spirits of the wicked or righteous were judged and then rewarded or punished.

Ihedinobi3

If it is the spirit that is rewarded or if the spirits can live forever, than explain to me why Paul taught the early Christains that the only hope of those who died in Christ is the hope of resurrection which only Christ can offer.

Why would Christains hope for the resurrection when their spirits already have immmortality?

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

O Yeah Mr know all start.

Response #19:
As I said in my last answer to you, I cannot answer questions and challenges that have nothing to do with my own arguments to you.

Question #20:
ttps://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/bible-questions-and-answers/did-the-ghost-of-samuel-appear-to-saul-after-his death.
Did the ghost of Samuel
appear to Saul after his death?
Add to my study list
o. There are several important scriptures
to consider before we examine the actual
story, recorded in 1 Samuel 28:7-25 . The
first is the verse immediately prior, which
informs the reader that “when Saul inquired of
the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by
dreams or by Urim or by the prophets” ( 1
Samuel 28:6 ). God was refusing to communicate
with Saul through any means, including His
prophets. Samuel, even if he had been still alive,
would have had nothing to tell Saul. From this
we can infer that the “Samuel” who
communicated with Saul was not a prophet of
God speaking from beyond the grave.
Another important passage is in Ecclesiastes 9:5 ,
10, which says plainly that “the living know that
they will die; but the dead know nothing…for
there is no work or device or knowledge or
wisdom in the grave where you are going.”
When we die, we enter a state the Bible likens to
“sleep” ( 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 ), remaining
unconscious until the resurrections at or after
Christ’s return. There is certainly no soul that
lives on, able to communicate with the rest of
the living.
Knowing this, the entity Saul communicated with
could not possibly have been the ghost or spirit
of Samuel, or any other human being. That
leaves only the spirit realm as a possibility—and
given that God had explicitly cut off
communication between Himself (and by
extension, His angels) and Saul (compare 1
Samuel 13:14 ; 28:6 and Isaiah 59:2 ), we are forced
to conclude that the “Samuel” conjured up by the
medium of En Dor was a demonic spirit
masquerading as God’s prophet.
We might ask, “If it was really a demon
communicating with Saul, why did it tell him the
truth?” ( 1 Samuel 28:16-19 ; compare 13:9-14;
15:8-9, 26; 31:2-4). We must remember that the
primary goal of Satan and his demons is to
destroy us. By selectively telling Saul pieces of
the truth, the demon posing as Samuel was able
to depress him to the point where Saul was no
longer able to stand up ( 1 Samuel 28:20 ).
The demon used parts of the truth, while posing
as a man of God, to paint a picture of
hopelessness. “And no wonder! For Satan himself
transforms himself into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also
transform themselves into ministers of
righteousness, whose end will be according to
their works” ( 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 ).

Ihedinobi3

Response #20:
I'm afraid I can't agree with you. My reasons have been stated in my earlier posts. I have addressed Samuel and the issue of death being called "sleep." I would only be repeating myself if I respond to the above here again. So, look at my earlier arguments and ask what questions you want to for clarification or just present what arguments you believe demonstrate any error in them.

Question #21:
Note this is cope right, I think this will go a long way to butress my point I don't have time now to compose my response.

King Saul approached the witch of Endor
requesting that she conjure up Samuel. His ruse
was found out but this did not deter him. He
insisted she bring up a spirit; Scripture records
that she complied.
But who was it that Saul spoke to? Did the witch
of Endor conjure up the dead spirit of Samuel?
No. A close reading of the verses involved will
reveal that it was not Samuel. First, notice in
verse 14 that Saul has to ask her to tell him what
she sees and its appearance. Once she informs
him that it's an old man covered with a mantle,
he understands it to be Samuel. Sounds a bit fishy
to me. Secondly, and I believe the greatest
evidence against identifying this apparition as
Samuel, is found in verses 15 and 16. Ironically,
the evidence lies in Saul's own words. Verse 15
records him talking to what he believes is Samuel.
When asked by the apparition why he was
summoned, Saul responds, "God is departed from
me, and answereth me no more, neither by
prophets, nor by dreams." Notice what he said
about prophets. Saul said God does not answer
me by prophets. This apparition replies in verse
16, "Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing
the Lord is departed from thee, and is become
thine enemy."
If God would not answer Saul by prophets, what
made him think he was talking to a prophet? The
apparition all but says, "If God does not answer
you by prophets, then what makes you think you
are speaking to one now?" The fact that Saul
understands that God will not communicate with
him should put us on notice that God would not
do so through a dead prophet, either—not to
mention the fact that according to Scripture, the
dead know nothing and rest in the grave until the
second coming. On the night before his death,
Saul sought council from a witch. This witch of
Endor conjured up an apparition, but it was
certainly not Samuel. Instead, it was a demon.
Again, you might ask, how do you know it was a
demon? A study of the whole Bible will reveal
that it could not have been anything else but a
demon. Unfortunately, I don't have the space in
this blog to study this in-depth. Nevertheless, I'll
give a quick answer that should serve to dispel
the belief that Samuel was brought up from the
dead. First Chronicles 10:13-14 says this about
the death of Saul: "So Saul died for his
transgression which he committed against the
Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which
he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one
that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and
enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him,
and turned the kingdom unto David the son of
Jesse." According to 1 Chronicles 10:13-14,
whatever the witch of Endor conjured up, it was
not of the Lord. So Saul sought out the spirit of
Satan because he did not get an answer from
God. Because of that, Saul was destroyed.
There are several lessons we can learn from this
story. First, be patient. Don't take things into your
own hands. "Wait on the Lord: be of good
courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart:
wait, I say, on the Lord." (Psalms 27:14)
Secondly, demonic forces are not to be trifled
with. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers, against
the rulers of the darkness of this world, against
spiritual wickedness in high places." (Ephesians
6:12) Finally, never give up on the Lord. Never
think that He will not take you back. Don't
believe the satanic lie that you have gone too far.
The love of God can reach the deepest of seas.
Remember 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he
is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to
cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Ihedinobi3

Response #21:
Okay, I can work with this.

First, this argument ignores completely the rather incontrovertible fact that it is neither Saul nor the medium that calls the el'ohim that the medium sees coming up out of the earth Samuel. It is the Bible itself that does. That is, the narration says that it was Samuel that spoke to Saul, not that someone told Saul that Samuel was speaking to him. Had it been the medium who called the el'ohim Samuel, we could argue that she deceived Saul. Had it been Saul who was reported as calling it Samuel, we could argue that he deceived himself. But it was the Bible itself that calls it Samuel. This then is all we need to be sure that it was really Samuel who responded to Saul's summons.

Second, it is true that this inquiry cannot have been said to be of the Lord. The Lord was express in forbidding all consultation and dalliance with the world of spirits apart from Him (Leviticus 20:27). So, Saul was not hoping or expecting to hear from the Lord. He was relying on something the Lord completely forbade. But this does not mean at all that the Lord forbade Himself from overriding demonic cons in order to punish a sinning believer. Consider the example of Samson. God forbade sexual immorality and marriage to unbelievers, but Samson was a blatant fornicator and decided that he must have a Philistine wife, and an unbelieving one too. We know from the Scriptures that this was something that God meant to use to pick a fight with the Philistines, but does that mean then that Samson was right to seek such a marriage? Absolutely not. The Lord knows what He is working with (Psalm 103:14), and He makes the perfect use of it. The Lord knew that Saul would go to the medium instead of repenting his rebellion against Him, so He overrode the seance and condemned him to death for his stubbornness through Samuel.

Third, in light of the above, I will respond to your use of Ecclesiastes 9:5. As I said of a similar objection, this life is where we fight, where we choose and confirm our allegiance, whether to the Lord or to Satan. This is the place where we deliberately choose to find, listen to and hear the Truth, learn it, believe it, and help other believers to do the same. Only while we are still alive in this body can we make a choice to do this. After we die, we can no longer choose. What we experience after death is a sealing of our choice. So, there is no "knowledge" after death that counts. After we die, we come face to face with the Truth and can no longer choose to ignore it. So, for example, the rich man in Torments in Luke 16 is not arguing whether God exists or whether the Lord Jesus is the true Savior. Rather he is asking for relief from his torment and for the Truth to be given to his brothers so that they do not end up in Torments with him. The dead can no longer learn, because they can see the Truth clearly with no mortality shielding them from true reality anymore. They can gain no more rewards because they have finished making their choices. Their rewards or lack thereof is now a confirmed matter. Nothing can be added to or taken away from what they have chosen. Their own books are complete. This does not mean that those who died in the Faith know nothing about what goes on on Earth. Samuel obviously knew, and in Revelation, we see that the saints who have gone to be with the Lord have access to the sea of ice before God's Throne through which all those in Heaven can view events on Earth. We are also told in Hebrews 12:1 that those who have already gone to be with the Lord form "a great cloud of witnesses" cheering us on in our own pilgrimage through this world. So, contrary to your argument, the dead do know plenty. But that knowledge is no longer of account to them, since they have already finished making and confirming their own choices here on Earth.

Fourth, as I said, I have already told you about "sleep." I have nothing new to say about that here.

Question #22:
Ihedinobi3.

It's obvious you don't know what you are saying.

I have asked you a simple question which you cannot explain.

If you knew what you were saying it will take you only 3 or 4 lines to express and explain what you know rather than this lengthy meaningless thing you wrote here.

Response #22:
You have a free will. You have the ability to pretend that something is true when it isn't, that something is false when it isn't, that something has not been explained when it has been, that something has been explained when it has not been, etc.

In other words, I can't argue with you about what you want to believe. If you wish to believe that all your reasonable questions and challenges have not been answered, by all means do so, even if it is obviously not true.

As for the length of my answers, I don't think that any believer thinks that the Bible is meaningless or that it does not know what it is talking about just because it is so voluminous. Nor do I think that the fact that a book has been written about any given subject means that the writer knows nothing about the subject. In fact, I didn't see three or four lines in your post itself. It was quite lengthy. Yet, mine is meaningless and ignorant because it is long.

Believe me, it doesn't bother me what you want to believe. That is entirely your concern. My business is merely to teach the Truth wherever I am given to. You don't have to believe me, not unless you want the benefits that come with doing so.

If, however, you carry on teaching falsehoods that cause the children of God to stumble, you should remember

1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! 2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luke 17:1 (KJV)

1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
James 3:1 (KJV)

Question #23:
Here is a typical example of God creating man just like in the Genesis account Man becomes a living Soul when the body(dust) meets with the breath or life force from God which is the spirit.

The both examples no where was a soul added as claimed by false teachers.

Ezekiel 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

Ihedinobi3

Response #23:
I'm not sure why you addressed this to me. I did mention Genesis 2:7 and Ecclesiastes 12:7 in my follow-up questions to you on Page 1. I hold that man is a soul because he is a spirit that lives in an unresurrected body. That is what I see the Bible teach.

What I don't see the Bible teach anywhere is that man goes out of existence when he dies. That's what I've been asking you to show how the Bible teaches. Your responses have been nothing but insults and unrelated questions. In other words, you have no proof. You have only been twisting Scriptures to sell a lie.

Question #24:
And I asked you to show me proof that the spirit lives after death.

How can the dead know nothing when their spirit is alive?

Response #24:
First of all, you are the one making wild claims with your thread and I came here to demand that you substantiate them biblically. So far, you haven't been able to, so you really are in no position to make demands.

Second, I have accepted responsibility, nonetheless, to demonstrate the Bible's true position. And I have done so exhaustively, in spite of your complaint that my answers are too long, I should add. I see no reason to repeat myself. You have to actually read my responses in order to actually hear what I have to say. When you have read them, then you can tell whether or not there is anything missing. So, do go back and read my responses. If you don't see my answers to your demand for proof about how spirits live on after death and an explanation for the knowledge of the dead, you can make your demand again.

Hint: I've answered your questions and demands already.

Question #25:
Every thing you posted contradicts God's word.
Here is the words of Job concerning the State of the dead.
Job said that if he had died he would had been at rest and
like someone who never ever existed.
Job 3:9 Let the stars of the twilight thereof be dark; let it look
for light, but have none; neither let it see the dawning of the
day: 3:10 Because it shut not up the doors of my mother's
womb, nor hid sorrow from mine eyes. 3:11 Why died I not
from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came
out of the belly? 3:12 Why did the knees prevent me? or why
the breasts that I should suck? 3:13 For now should I have
lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been
at rest, 3:14 With kings and counsellors of the earth, which
built desolate places for themselves; 3:15 Or with princes that
had gold, who filled their houses with silver: 3:16 Or as an
hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never
saw light. 3:17 There the wicked cease from troubling; and
there the weary be at rest. 3:18 There the prisoners rest
together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. 3:19 The
small and great are there; and the servant is free from his
master. 3:20 Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery,
and life unto the bitter in soul; 3:21 Which long for death, but
it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures; 3:22
Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find
the grave?

It's obvious you have boxed yourself into a corner, hence your inability to answer my questions.

You claim that the Soul lives on and cannot die.

That's a very big lie because the Bible says the soul can die.
The soul is not Immorttal neither is man.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The spirit does not have Immortality the Bible says only God has Immortality .
remember that God is a spirit, so if the Bible says is Only God that has Immortality than it means that no other spirit has Immortality. That includes the Devil and the spirit of man

emphasis on Job 3:13,3:16,3:17,3:19

“Man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no
more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep. …
His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; they are
brought low, and he does not perceive it” (Job 14:12, 21).
“Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the
sun” (Ecclesiastes 9:6).

“The living know that they will die; but the dead know
nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of
them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy
have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in
anything done under the sun. … There is no work or device or
knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are
going” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10).
“The dead do not praise the Lord” (Psalm 115:17).

“Man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no
more” (Job 14:12).
“The day of the Lord will come … in which the heavens will
pass away” (2 Peter 3:10).

The Bible Says
After death a person: returns to dust (Psalms 104:29), knows
nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), possesses no mental powers
(Psalms 146:4), has nothing to do with anything on earth
(Ecclesiastes 9:6), does not live (2 Kings 20:1), waits in the
grave (Job 17:13), and continues not (Job 14:1, 2).

The undying, immortal soul is not mentioned in the Bible.
The word “immortal” is found only once in the Bible, and it is
in reference to God (1 Timothy 1:17).

No. The undying, immortal soul is not mentioned in the Bible.
The word “immortal” is found only once in the Bible, and it is
in reference to God (1 Timothy 1:17).

Response #25:
As you said, the Scriptures cannot be broken. So, I don't believe that any part of the Bible can contradict any other. That was why I provided passages in the Bible that disagreed with your interpretation of these ones that you have shown here and others like them. Then I also went on to provide an interpretation that accounts for everything the Bible has to say about all this.

You have not actually addressed my arguments at all. As I said, you have tried rather to drag me into an exchange of insults and accusations/counter accusations. You have dismissed my arguments right out of hand too. But you have not actually looked at what I have said and what I have shown you from the Bible that disagrees with your doctrine.

I don't really care what you want to believe and teach. That is really your business, and I have no right or interest in interfering in your exercise of your free will. I have only interfered here because you are teaching this in public space where I am also responsible to offer protection for believers who come around these parts. My interference is purely to leave a witness to the Truth here for those who could be misled by you. If they accept my testimony, they will be safe. If they do not, they won't be.

I am done with our exchange. I will not be responding again to you.

Question #26:
Are you running away?

I exposed the inconsistentance of of your argument and you could not defend yourself.

Response #26:
I don't think you did. I only saw you reiterating the position that I was challenging, not answering the challenges that I offered to you.

But, no matter, it really would be a waste of my time and energy to engage any further. I don't think you will or can answer my challenges any better than you have done.

Question #27:
Which challenges?
That the Soul lives after death, which cannot be proven in the Bible or is that the spirit is immortal?
Where you able to answer any of my questions?

Response #27:
You'll need to refer to my previous posts to find out which challenges. I did spell them out as clearly as I could from the beginning.

As for your second question, please read my previous posts to see what I actually said about the soul. As for what can be proven in the Bible, I think that it is obvious that you have no biblical arguments for your position. The fact that you have not addressed my arguments, preferring instead to try to drag me into an exchange of insults, is proof enough of that.

As for your questions, I was the challenger here. I came and asked you to prove that your teaching is biblical by showing you passages in the Bible that contradicted your position. You did not give any good answers. I proceeded on my own to provide an alternative interpretation of the Scriptures regarding the issue, and I answered every reasonable question that you asked challenging my interpretation. What questions I refused to answer I explained why I refused to answer.

I realize that you are quarrelsome and you are spoiling for a fight, but I have neither time nor energy for that. You have people here who have been more than happy to indulge your appetite for it, so you really don't need me to join in the fray. I have no doubt that your position is pure heresy. I also have no doubt now that you know it and simply don't care. So, I have no interest in trying to persuade you to believe anything different than you do. I am happy to simply demonstrate that you are teaching a false doctrine here so that anyone who loves the Truth and comes here will not be deceived by you. That's all.

Question #28:
This is a prayer of David to God, asking that God should deliver him while he is still alive
The question is why is David saying that the dead including him David when he dies, would not be able to praise God, if the spirit lives on after death reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee. 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? 88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? 88:13 But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee.ouldn't the spirit of David continue to praise God.

Afterall the same David decleared that he will praise God everyday.

Psalms 145:2 Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name

Or wouldn't God show his wonders to the spirits of David?

David explicitly called the dead the land of forgetfull ness.
Which is in agreement with what Solomon his son wrote years later.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Here is David's prayer

Psalms 88:9 Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee. 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? 88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? 88:13 But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee.

Response #28:
**No response**

Question #29:
Prophet Isaiah also prayed the same prayer to God.

Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. Isaiah 38:19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. In

Response #29:
**No Response**

Question #30:
https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/30/t/hell-fire--a-twisted-truth-untangled

Response #30:
**No response**

Question #31:
Revelation 14:13

And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are
the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the
Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds
follow with them."

I came across this Bible verse today, and i was wondering how those who died in Lord will resting and there soul and spirit will still be alive, conscious and working?

Response #31:
**No response**

Question #32:
When we put check other Bible verses, then it becomes clear what this revelation 20 must mean. Literal torment? I don't think so.

The Bible was clear as to the wages of sin. It is death. Adam and Eve were rewarded with death - eternal death. In other words, anything more than that is no longer the wages.

However, the Bible often use the word fire symbolically as eternal destruction. That is a fine conclusion.

As for that Rev. 20:14, that place said that lake of fire means the second death. Extinction. That is clear, it was defined.

Again, that place mentioned hades, death were said to be cast into the lake of fire. Logically, these things are not immortal to undergo everlasting torture. The account must be talking about something else in a figurative language. Check Jude 7.

Response #32:
I have answered much of the above in other comments (except for the idea that Adam and Eve were rewarded with "eternal death," I've never seen that anywhere in the Bible). Nonetheless, I don't discuss with Jehovah's Witnesses. You are all quarrelsome, and you have no respect for the Bible.

Question #33:
I respect your decision dear. Just that I don't agree that we are quarrelsome. Did someone make u feel that way? If so, Apologies. We are imperfect. I agree on that.

Response #33:
**No response**

Question #34:
Does death have any other meaning other than one been lifeless and unconscious?

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall
not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall
surely die.

Romans 6:23 King James Version (KJV)
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal
life through Jesus Christ our Lord

Response #34:
**No response**